We deliver you the interview with Ambassador of Czech Republic, Ivana Grollova.
WHEN I IMAGINE MONGOLIAN PEOPLE IN CZECH SOCIETY MOST OF THEM HARDWORKING
First of all, I would like to know visa conditions. Many Mongolians still apply for visa for travels to Czech Republic. But most of them are denied the visa.
I would like to start from the last question. You asked about Paris attacks. What happened in Paris is a tragedy. Because, so many people lost their lives uselessly.
At the same time it is clear that it is not a war against religion. But against extremist who want to dictate probably to one kind of civilization their own point of view. That's what I want to put together with your questions. Because as we spoke before, sometimes in Mongolia I`m asked to answer questions only connected to Mongolia. Things are connected of course. I`m not sure how much ordinary people realize that. Of course sometimes it`s difficult to see that you`re dealing with your daily problem and you don`t see that it may have a bigger picture.
Back to the question, you`re asking me about Mongolian workers in Czech, visas so on. Czech Republic is a member state of EU. At the same time it`s a member Schengen area. Schengen area is not the same as EU. In Schengen area there`re some countries who`re not members of EU. Also Great Britain is a member of EU, but not in the Schengen.
Schengen area`s pretty big. It covers many of the European countries. It aims to set up a system which would allow people to move freely throughout the Schengen. But at the same time you have to make the system working and not to be misused. To set up such system is very difficult.
Of course you want to be nice to visitors, people who live friendly. There`re already many examples of misuse of such rules who`re not coming with good wisdom, but who`re trying to misuse social payments for example. They come to one country and disappear.
Unfortunately, Schengen rules are sometimes very strict and also a little bit bureaucratic. That`s also a problem. The fact that we`re checking everybody whether he`s lying or not. It`s because many people in previous years have misused the system. So we were probably too open minded in the beginning.
According to the lessons we have learned the system becomes strict and stricter. We have different types of visas. Short term and long term visas and business, multi visas. Also relatives need to apply for different types of visa. Now what is the biggest problem for us is applications for work. This is not only visa. People are applying for jobs in Czech. Some companies cannot find workers in Czech. They look for foreign workers. There`s huge agenda around it. It`s difficult to say the amount. Last year more than 3000 people submitted for visa. Submitted means given the visas. But the number of applications for is quite a lot.
There are many Mongolians working in Czech Republic. How do you welcome and receive them?
Mongolians are not dangerous ones. When I imagine Mongolian people in Czech society most of them hardworking. They`re not insisting on changing the Czech society rules. Because they` re very polite. Usually they learn the language very quickly. Children are in school. There are no religious clashes. So in fact they are those with whom European society can live easily. From this point of view they do not represent danger. They are very welcome.
But on the other hand they should understand that they have to go through the same screening as everybody else. After the September 11 in New York we all have to go through the frames, we all have to show at the airport everything we have in our bags etc. It doesn`t mean that I am a terrorist. I have to get through the same rules as others. Because others were bad. That`s one of the things which I would really like people to understand and be patient. I know that some of them want to go to Czech Republic to work or either just to travel or to go to meeting.
But we are not issuing visas only for Czech Republic. Once visas are issued for Czech, Slovakia, Hungary or Poland, maybe in future Switzerland, they got the entrance into all Schengen system. Once the general danger exists that supporters of IS or other extremist organization may enter the Shengen area, all visa issuing offices all around the world must follow the same strict rules. Unfortunatelly, after the Paris or other terrorist attacks these rules can hardly become easier. We are not doing it on purpose, but we have to send all that information to the center and wait for the visa. That`s why the system is so slow.
SOME "CLEVER" MONGOLIANS SELLING ILLEGALLY PLACES IN THE LINE TO OTHER FELLOW MONGOLIANS
It takes time to check the materials and documents of people applying for a visa, right?
Yes. I know that some Mongolian people are very nervous. They just heard that they can get some job in Prague and they have invitation for one month. They cannot get time for appointment here at the embassy. That`s reality. Things should be prepared a little bit in advance. We`re trying to make the system at least a little bit quickly. Therefore, we need more human resource and financing. But it takes time to get financing from Czech Republic.
People should also see from that point of view. Some month ago we had some demonstrations in front of the embassy. The petitioners said they will just “force us” to give them visas. That is ridiculous. First, the country is not obliged to allow people to enter its borders. Even if the companies may request workers from abroad, it doesn`t mean that these future workers can go in without control. Our state still needs to know who they are, their applications must be processed.
Ordinary people who came from countryside, unless they paid to those “mediators” had no chance. It could not be influenced by the embassy, as it all was happening on the public street.
There`s one myth floating around people here. A few years ago people had to come and stay in a long line in front of the complex where our embassy resides. Those who, for example, came from countryside may have stayed there sometimes even for several days. We unfortunately found out that some "clever" Mongolians, I`m sorry to say that, were doing “bad things” to other fellow Mongolians - they started to sell illegally places in that line. They came in the evening to the parking place, selling the “places” for the following morning and their person was then selecting the people in the line next morning before they could even reach our gates. Ordinary people who came from countryside, unless they paid to those “mediators” had no chance. It could not be influenced by the embassy, as it all was happening on the public street.
When we found out this was the way Mongolians were blocking other Mongolians to get here, the waiting system has been changed into the electronic Visapoint. It is designed from our capital to allow everybody to get the appointment time in advance and to come just for that particular day and hour. Again, some people have more time to sit around their computer and wait for a free appointment slot to make their reservation, others do not. Those complain that it is impossible to get to the system. But that is not exactly like this and there is no technical interruption of the system. Our system works properly. Its capacity, however, is limited to working hours of so little working staff that we have. There are simply more applicants than we can process within one month. Those looking for a time slot simply need to be more patient, do not give up once the system says “all slots are taken, try late”, because the new ones may appear just in a few moments – so people should really keep trying again. People started to gossip. Not even gossip, we even saw public advertisements in newspapers promising `If you pay me I will get appointment for you`. This is something we can do nothing about. These are, again, just Mongolians who try to make illegal money on the others. I am sure they do not pay tax of this profit, I am sure that they do not have license for such business. Maybe, some have license for translation but there is no such official agency in UB to set up appointment with the embassy. Our Embassy has no agreement with any outsourcing agency, our Visapoint should be accessible to anybody directly. The only money visa should cost (around 60 EUR) are paid at the Embassy´s counter under constant supervision of cameras. It is not technically possible to block several time slots by one person and then sell the slots to others. Each appointment must already be made by real applicant who then brings all documents to the interview. But as long as people are willingly to paying money to these illegal “mediators” to wait around the computer and get the time slot in Visapoint for them, the problem is rather on Mongolian side, I am afraid.
Really?
Yes. If you pay to others, in fact you are helping those people to do illegal profit and make the situation even worse. Those people are just making easy money on troubles of the others.
Did police take any actions against those people?
We have already spoken with the Police authorities and they are ready to take measures, prosecute particular cases. People keep complaining, however, but usually do not announce particular name of whom they paid. So even the police can do very little. We are in constant touch with the Mongolian Ministry of Foreign Affairs as well as police. I am sure they also do their best to stop these illegal “mediators”.
On our side we are trying to get some reinforcement, although the premises of our embassy are small (In socialism the whole building belonged to the Czechoslovak Embassy, now we are only hiring offices in it, the building belongs to a private Mongolian owner,) We have reconstructed our part to make two “teller” windows so that we could proceed faster and serve more people simultaneously. That is a technical problem on our side which I admit.
Before criticizing our hard working staff, however, people should realize one fact instead: There are not many Schengen countries who keep their embassies in UB. In fact, we took the burden to represent others to make it easier for Mongolians to travel to Europe. Unfortunately, we did not get any support for that so far. We still work with the same amount of people, still in technically very difficult conditions. And one day still has only 24 hours…
To blame those who are actually trying to help Mongolians to get visas from here and not to be obliged to travel for them to Beijing, is unfair. Sometimes, I am really sorry for our employees here. They are really doing their best, work long after the working hours. As you know, Mongolians very often bring half of their documents or bring them old, invalid, even fake, they do not fill their application forms properly. Instead of accepting all required papers within several minutes, we spend much more time on nearly every applicant. When I talk to other Czech consulates in different countries, they say that usually one applicant is processed in 10 minutes. Because, their applicants just bring everything prepared and on due time – so they can just put stamps and the applicant can go home. But here, people bring passport which has all pages full or lack half of the necessary documents - and get angry like if that was our mistake! So disciplined approach is needed from the Mongolian side, too.
Unfortunately, it`s Mongolian mentality.
See? Again the same disrespect to our rules! Yes, these Mongolians have “specific Mongolian mentality”. Fine, but they people want to go to Europe! And Europe has its own kind of rules Let`s call it “European standards”. And it is very bureaucratic sometimes. But you want to go there. So to tell us “ you have to understand our different mentality” makes no logic! We could reply: “Ok, so why do you go to Europe if you do not want to follow our rules? Are you sure we need you?” These are the questions people have to ask themselves before they start demanding entrance to someone else´s home.
Yes, we want tourists, our companies want workers. But if you want to go and live or work somewhere, first of all you have to accept rules of that country there, have not you? From the beginning you say "Well this is my mentality. You have to understand and take me as I am." But in that case, some people in Europe start to feel pushed, inconvenient, and start asking our politicians "Do we really need them?".
WHY YOUR CHILDREN STILL DO NOT HAVE NORMAL TOILETS AT SCHOOLS?
Refugees caused many problems to many European countries last year. What do you think?
I started this interview from the Paris tragedy. Of course, that situation is much more complicated and that particular attack was even committed mostly by people who have already lived in Europe for a long time and where considered Europeans.
Many of those Islamist extremists may be just a result of insufficient social adaptation, lack of inclusiveness or, in a contrary, lack of their will to accept the rules of a country they were brought or even born into many years ago. I am sure, their parents were looking for better lives for their children there and I really cannot not elaborate here deeper on reasons why their children still remain full of complexes and frustration from being unsuccessful. It is clear, however, that they have started to hate everything around them – although they are not willing to return back to the countries their predecessors or they themselves came from. Nowadays, when we see thousands of refugees, who are technically illegal immigrants (i.e. without proper visas and identification documents), many citizens of European countries start asking “Why would we be obliged to help you if the life in your country is miserable?” There are many Europeans who feel we are partly obliged to help just out of human solidarity. Some think West is even a part of the problem because there are wars in those countries initially provoked “by us” (meaning the West, the US and their allies etc.). Of course we all should at least try to imagine what horrible decisions desperate parents have to be doing to get their kids to safety from bombs and constant fire. Yes, things are connected and it is up to politicians to help their citizens to keep proper balance between humanistic and humanitarian approach and quite legitimate concerns over the security of their own children.
We all should at least try to imagine what horrible decisions desperate parents have to be doing to get their kids to safety from bombs and constant fire.
We are in Mongolia, nevertheless. Thanks God, there is no war here. Yes, conditions are difficult here for many. - Yes, since democratic transition started, there was a long Asian crisis, only minimal economic development for nearly the whole decade. Since 2000, however, so many foreign donors, countries, international organizations have provided much money for development aid and cooperation projects to Mongolia. Therefor I do not see good reason why - going back to “De facto” Jargalsaikhan´s alarming commentary, we still have children, especially in the countryside schools, who have to use outside “dry” toilets and have no running water in their schools! You know there were billions of dollars provided to different projects here in peaceful democratic Mongolia within the recent 25 years. So why your children still do not have normal toilets at schools? Why life is so difficult for many? That`s what you should ask. And it is great that in Mongolia you are free to ask such questions?`. Why then many of your people still prefer to go to the Czech Republic to work in very difficult conditions where they only get a very low salary? Even those who have graduated from universities here! Yes, it is fine they are getting foreign experience and regular salary. But it is such a low salary that the Czechs do not even want to take that job. That is why companies are looking for workers from abroad. Why do these Mongolians have to do it? Because, the life in Mongolia is difficult for them. These are questions citizens should ask their governments and politicians at home – and in democratic Mongolia they can do that. The Europeans (or Americans, Japanese or others) are requested to issue visas, because life of the applicants is difficult and they want to move. But that would hardly solve the situation in their own country!
I expressed my concerns so openly – because we would rather like to help Mongolia to become a nice place to live, than to be helping its citizens to escape the life here.
IN FACT, WE NEVER HAD ANY LICENSE OR PREFERENCES HERE
Can you tell me total amount of donations from Czech Republic?
We simply wanted to help and boost your development. It was not charity. We knew each other from the socialism era - and our people really loved their Mongolian friends and colleagues, your beautiful country. In fact, we never had any license or preferences here. During socialist COMECON system of international economic cooperation we were told by Moscow we should do, but we were not shareholders here. What was excellent, however we had many Mongolians learning at our schools. Until now they are important politicians, experts, businessmen, engineers or artists here. We have developed close understanding between our countries. In 1989 we had the same “peaceful” revolution as you did slightly later and went also through transition. Those were not times to invest abroad - we had our own problems and therefore it can be said that even our development cooperation projects were never meant as “ticket” for future mining licenses or purchase preferences.
We were the first ones from ex-socialist countries to start contribute ODA (which means internationally agreed development aid) funds. The “ODA” contributions by developed countries are supervised by OECD and the newly democratic Czech Republic put Mongolia among its 5 priority countries who got the biggest portions of its ODA since the very beginning in 1996 We started from much smaller percentage of our GDP then pledged by more developed countries, but still, in case of Mongolia it helped to implement several interesting model projects. We were doing very different projects here and I am always proud that majority of them were “fitting” the real needs (though our methodology was probably too weak to endure their further sustainability once the financing from our side got to the end).
Main philosophy of those projects was to help you to help yourself in a way that we were showing you new methodologies, new technologies. For example, doing model of small hospitals that you can have really working in remote areas – which has been recently picked up and is being promoted throughout the whole country by WHO.
Since 1996 the Czech Republic has provided development cooperation of roughly 50 million US dollars. You cannot, however, judge this amount from the point of view of money only. The value lays somewhere else. We implemented rather small projects, but with hope that they would bring much more results to Mongolians afterwards – in sense of know-how for their own future businesses, agriculture, medicine, veterinary or e.g. hydrogeology state sectors etc. This impact is difficult to measure in money. And it was not investment either, since we have not got any profit from it for our own companies.
After 2000 much bigger donors “discovered” Mongolia. Many of them gave your country soft loans, many helped by projects but in much larger scale than we could (f, e.g. the Millennium challenge project by the USA). So there were more money coming in then just from the Czech Republic.
I am afraid, however, that you can see a lot of luxury cars in streets bought on those projects money. But the core purpose of such projects was different. I think hospitals and schools should had been built and improved first.
I AM A LITTLE BIT OUTRAGED, HOWEVER, WHY FOREIGNERS HAD TO HELP?
Can you tell us about ongoing projects supported by the Czech Government?
Embassy itself can recommend the Czech Government to support also several projects each year to help mutual trade or economic cooperation, one or two projects focusing the so called “transformation” or human rights area and several so-called small local projects designed to support civil society in realization of their useful ideas and endeavours. In previous years we have cooperated with many NGOs, schools, with the special 116th school, with Association of blind or Hope hospice, children´s eco-clubs or Gobi B national park - to give just few examples. Last year we helped to purchase some furniture for a kindergarten for children with disabilities in need of special treatment.
Children in similarly specialized school in Ulaanbaatar had no dining and after-school facilities. For this reason they could not stay in the school in the afternoon and their parents could not have a full time job as they had to pick up their kids just after the morning classes. We were happy to be able to help them to solve that difficulty.
I am a little bit outraged, however, too. Why foreigners had to help? Just next to these schools there are huge pieces of land used for billiard clubs or karaoke buildings. Why in today´s Mongolian society does not education and care of disadvantaged groups have priority before entertainment? We seem to be selling whole UB just to developers. In some areas one can think that nobody seems to be care about pedestrian sidewalks along the streets and places where kids could play.
As long as the citizens do not ask questions and request such things, we all are just helping the developers to make money, while the city is growing less and less bearable for people and their daily life. I am afraid of that It starts resembling rather “money laundry” hubs in many developing countries with richness of minerals but poor society. Actually, for me it is always interesting to see how many members of parliaments or governments in different countries live with their families in their respective capital cities. I find it an interesting sign of responsibility before the society, of trust and pride of their own policy-making.
Now we have a forestry project in Selenge aimag. Our experts are not planting trees for you, they are teaching your own experts, cooperatives and students how to nurse them themselves and, most importantly, how to take care of the forest and organize the whole forest-connected area of economy. Although for business it may always be easier to import wood from Siberia, the ability to organize sustainable forestry in Mongolia will be even more important in coming years rather because of the climate change and mining impact on your carbon emissions as well as wild animal life. Just some four decades ago Ikh Tenger valley was full of trees - now it is empty. There, in Ikh Tenger, this cannot be connected simply with desertification, pollution or industrial lodging. The lack of proper forestry sector skills was also the reason. To restore forests and make them grow in a sustainable manner, you need proper knowledge and skills that, logically, were not a part of traditional nomadic set of wisdom. That is why our experts have been called in to bring them here and help your own professionals.
We seem to be selling whole UB just to developers. In some areas one can think that nobody seems to be care about pedestrian sidewalks along the streets and places where kids could play. As long as the citizens do not ask questions and request such things, we all are just helping the developers to make money, while the city is growing less and less bearable for people and their daily life.
Also we have one project in Murun city, helping to set up model water use planning, water protection, distribution and cleaning system for an urban area of such scale.
Another project in realization deals with de-contamination of several sites previously highly contaminated by industrial waste or storages of dangerous materials. Unfortunately, you have some places literally “poisoned”. Our project experts, following your Ministry of Environment (and Tourism) request, have mapped most of them and some of them are now to be cleaned. Through that process we are also showing your experts how to store such dangerous waste properly and keep it as safe as possible till the time when it would be possible to destroy it completely. Complete liquidation is, of course, the best option. Most probably you would get dispose of such hazardous burden in specialized facilities abroad, because to build your own capacities would be unnecessarily too expensive. So far, however, Mongolia was not even allowed to transport its waste through territory of other countries for final liquidation, for it could not prove that its packaging and storage of that waste would be up to proper international safety standards. I have noticed that this may change soon – also with help of our experts on the ground – and some law amendments and international agreements to this end may be adopted in near future.
We are currently implementing several “big” development projects that are designed to finish in the end of 2017. Maybe, commencing 2018 we will be executing rather different type projects – that is to be decided by the new upcoming development cooperation strategy by our Government. For example, we may prefer projects supporting companies that already cooperate with our businesses by training their workers or we may provide more scholarships. Currently, beside the development projects only 2-3 Mongolians can go to study in the Czech Republic on stipend fully paid for by the Czech Government. Usually one can study in English, one or two in Czech language. Our overall budget for development cooperation has not allowed us to dedicate more money to students from Mongolia so far as the rest of the money had to be divided among other developing countries, too.
SOMETIMES PEOPLE GET JUST PAID MONEY TO GO AND DEMONSTRATE WITHOUT PROPER UNDERSTANDING OF THE ISSUE
Last June a state owned Mongolian company and a Czech private company established a new joint company named Mon - Czech - Uranium. How many nuclear stations do you have in your country and how big is the portion of atomic energy in the whole energy mix of the Czech Republic?
Our energy mix is quite balanced - we still keep some portion of energy from coal as we have large domestic coal production. Substantial portion is, however, also from so-called green or renewable energy sources and the nuclear energy is one of them. Plus we have big and many small hydro power stations on our rivers etc.
We also have uranium mines on our own territory. We know what it means about security, danger of pollution and so on
Yes, we have experts experienced in atomic energy. We also have uranium mines on our own territory. We know what it means about security, danger of pollution and so on. Diamo is a state company like MonAtom. Diamo experts are now mostly concentrating on reclamation and rehabilitation projects of the closed mines. But of course, they were experts of mining and use of uranium for peaceful means as well.
The company called Uranium Industry which created a joint company with your state company MonAtom, as you mentioned, is a private company. I understand they are planning to use some Diamo experts as subcontractors.
How do Czech people react to atomic stations? Did they organize any demonstrations against this kind of project? Here some scientists and economists support atomic energy. But last year there was a demonstration in front of French embassy.
Actually I am in touch with your National Security Council experts. These concerns need to be taken seriously and I am happy we can help with our experience to this end. Demonstration is a legitimate means of expression of opinion. Another question is, however, when sometimes people get just paid money to go and demonstrate without proper understanding of the issue. We had a lot of demonstrations in the Czech Republic in fact organized by green NGO`s from Austria.
Those may not be always genuine protest, or rather – the organizers just used little knowledge of facts and misused fear of common citizens from the unknown. Nevertheless, uranium can be dangerous and each responsible government needs to admit it. You have a lot of it in your nature. Naturally Gobi is very radioactive.
There are lots of things people should know about uranium and focus on proper safety rules when dealing with it, From one nuclear energy conference I remember it took one Skandinavian country experts nearly 20 years to convince inhabitants of sea shore villages that radioactive waste storages far off shore do not represent danger to them. Well, that Government could also hide its intention about the storage – but that Government found it much more responsible towards its own society and also its own political image to play fair and make people understand first.
Here in Mongolia, I am afraid, we have also witnessed rather uninformed protests when it came to uranium so far. Some people insist their cattle have died because of uranium mining. But to my limited knowledge, there was in fact no active uranium mining so far! There were only few probes. I still think the demonstrations against experienced and, I am sure, careful, French company Areva, for example, were bigger bubble than necessary.
But it`s my own opinion. Yes you have to be careful about uranium. On the other hand it does not mean to be hysterical about it. Agree that people should be aware of potential risks and follow the Government´s decision making process with informed and constructive participation. Here comes also responsibility of journalists. There is so much information about uranium available. Yes, most of it in English or other languages, probably not that much in Mongolian.
The journalists should help explaining people its nature, possibilities of its peaceful and harmless use for example in medicine, about the balanced levels of radiation which are not dangerous. Journalists can bring good and bad examples of proper supervision and safety regulations and safeguards from all over the world. Journalists themselves should be better educated to this end before they start commenting on this complex issue.
Not only spreading gossips, but bringing real data, helping to educate the others in objective, systematic and balanced manner. Before the new mine is open there should be good analysis of its potential environmental impact, the Government itself should probably request it. There need to be good knowledge of the pre-mining situation which can be then systematically compared with real developments on the ground during the mining and transportation of the uranium ore, yellow cake as well as the dug up dirt.
Not everything in our nature is just result of mining. You also have to be objective. Construction and servicing of the nuclear power-station is another even far more complex an issue and requires even more expertise – and awareness. But so far the Czech public seems to feel well informed and, though cautious, does understand this type of energy as one of the in fact most environmentally friendly one.
At the same time, our decontamination experts have found several abandoned industrial sites or storages on Mongolian territory which are contaminated from chemical wastes, for instance, and are already much more dangerous and those suspected uranium probes! For example, the water going out from some industrial outlets of some cities is literally poisoned. There are photographs of cattle whose organs were tore out by regularly drunk such poisoned water. But nearly nobody demonstrates about that, nobody is asking who is responsible for the pollution and for the cleaning.
Can you give us more details about Uranium Industry company? Who leads this company and investors?
One of the owners of it is a citizen of the Czech Republic, geologist by profession. They are registered in publicly accessible register of businesses so everybody can get the information from Internet. I am not aware about details of the contract between them and MonAtom. The private company is not obliged to inform the Embassy once our Government was not a part of the agreement.
I can only hope it will be a good project with all European standards and norms observed on both sides.
IF PEOPLE LOOSE MONEY HERE THEY ARE NOT INTERESTED IN COMING ANYMORE
You`ve been working here since 2012. What do you think about instability of governments in Mongolia? We all know that rulers change very often. Does it influence you?
You mean as a diplomat mission?
Yes.
Since so far most of the people who are in Mongolian politics I happen to know for years. It is not therefore not that difficult to me to get re-oriented. I just have to remember which post they are occupying currently now. But without joking - these frequent changes do not make very good picture about the country. But I even don`t think changes itself have to be the biggest problem. In Switzerland for example, rulers change so often. Italy or even Japan change Governments pretty often, too. The problem is when here all the promises of previous government get forgotten, abandoned. That`s the problem.
If the system still works the fact that you change several people on the top does not necessarily influence people. Unless, with the ministers you do not change also the whole staff and do not bring completely new people who have no clue about the agenda, rules, no institutional memory, who are only loyal relatives or friends but not professionals. If normal business goes on in the environment where rules are set up clear you do not even need to know the deputy minister. Company comes, talks to other companies, passes some formalities and starts doing business to mutual profit and satisfaction. From that profit it pays salaries and social insurance to its employees and tax to both or only one country budget given mutual double-taxation agreements of those particular countries.
In fact, in market economy companies do not need governments for nearly anything else. Here, people understand that first of all you have to know people in the Government. Why? Second problem is that rules change so often. You simply do not know what will happen in a half year. Yes, we have laws. But laws can be changed so often. We may have some approvals and stamps for cooperation projects - but you change the ministries next year and this ministry is not mandated for submitting approvals to the same issue anymore and the approvals given by previous ministries are not valid anymore. That`s the problem. Change Prime minister how often you want. But let the working and effective system stay. You, the citizens have to insist your Government and Parliament work that way if you want your country to be considered worthy investing money in.
Many feel victims of the so-called “Long name law”. I personally think that law is important and quite good. Unfortunately it came late.
We are trying to bring many companies here so they can work together with Mongolian partners. But businessmen tell us they do not trust Mongolia. We had some companies who were taken by surprise while they put in some money. Things have changed – and their investment is simply “gone with the wind”. Many feel victims of the so-called “Long name law”. I personally think that law is important and quite good.
Unfortunately it came late. You simply did not realize its need at the very beginning. The environmental impact consideration, I have mentioned earlier, had to come before the licenses have been issued. You realized the need to protect invaluable water resources a little bit late. Well, that is unpleasant but still manageable. You only have to face the fact that several investors have lost money, because their licenses were stopped. I do not say they have to get their licenses or permissions for mining in water basins back. But of course, they need to get their loss reimbursed, paid back somehow. They invested their own money. You just cannot take it from them. Otherwise they won`t come again.
This trust for the investors is very important. I keep hearing questions: How much have the Czechs invested here? And I keep asking “What for?” Investment should be profitable for both the Mongolian partner and the investor. If people loose money here they are not interested in coming anymore. Mongolia could be much richer. If things were not jumping from one extreme to another so often, if decision and rules are not made so ad hoc, at the last minute, as we say “sewed by hot needle”. You mentioned visas and "the Mongolian mentality". Yes, not only visa applications but many other things are done in the very last moment. That's the problem. New attractive idea becomes fashionable and directions change again.
Yes, I know, this is nomadic. Yes, I understand. Well, I am explaining, on the other hand, why other people who may have been making their money for generation and measure twice before they jump, like the Czechs for example, still wonder if this is the stable and reliable place to invest in. Business is not about love, sympathies or emotions. It is highly pragmatic and down-to-earth.
Mongolia will lead UN`s Human rights council from 2016 till 2018. Did Czech Republic support Mongolia during the selection?
I used to work at UN in New York. So I had a chance to see how elections usually happen. Very often just have another candidations. So you just make deals with other countries. We will support you now. You will support us later. But in this case, from the point of Czech government this was very genuine support to Mongolia. Yes, we hope that you will support us – not only at the next elections, but in our work there. That you will be supporting the same or at least close principles and values as we do.
They are “bad guys” in the Council as well. Let`s say it very openly. They are there because they want to stop someone other`s ideas. UN represents the whole world. When I say “bad guys”, I am just joking. You simply have some ideas and you want to adopt and accept them. Others think their ideas are better. It is constant fight. From this point of view I think that Mongolia`s position is quite unique. Because in principle you close to our European understanding of human rights in many ways.
And speaking in the Council for the others means you should improve your human rights protection conditions and records even more. Regardless the welcome improvements in the Criminal Code, including the final formal abolition of capital punishment, the Mongolian journalism is still not really free yet. The level of professional education and quality is a matter of those journalists themselves, not state, but there are still legislative barriers which make it too risky and often impossible for the journalists to do free investigative journalism responsible first of all to democratic society.
Also the situation of domestic violence in Mongolia really needs to improve. The Parliament still owns the society improved law on this and to implement it even the police needs to be supported from state budget. It is not only about policemen having better cars or being better equipped with guns. It is also about their knowledge of the problem, about legal provision that allow them to take action against the attackers and protect real victims. So being a member of UN Human rights council is also a kind of obligation in front of others.
On the other hand, as a member of the Council you may be pushed to vote on some things which is not always easy to make a choice. You may be pushed to vote on resolutions which may not to be very well accepted by your neighbors, for example, or some other countries you want to do business with. In that sense your diplomats mostly have to be very professional, able to talk to other members of Human rights council to make the wording of those resolutions as close to the principles you like and that are, at the same time, acceptable for others.
Or to be brave enough and go and vote against the others even if they are your best business partner. It brings responsibility mostly on the shoulders of your diplomats – but the whole country should be aware of caviats of such international exposure. That is why I am glad that you are asking me about it.
YOU HAVE TO BE SOMEHOW BALANCING BETWEEN THE TWO POWERS AND IF YOU SAY YOU ARE NEUTRAL IN ADVANCE YOU CAN GET COMPLETELY STUCK IN BETWEEN
Now I would like to hear your ideas about neutralism ideas of President Ts.Elbegdorj offering. But parliament member G.Uyanga for example tells that we need to be very careful and she has a doubt about it.
You Mongolians should think about the issue first. I keep hearing it was an initiative by the President Ts.Elbegdorj. So I guess, he had thought it through. But probably did not discuss it with others enough. He may have had exact timing in mind for which he needed to announce the initiative publicly first, regardless the fact the draft law has not been adopted at home yet. I cannot see into his head.
I think it`s quite good, however, that draft resolution in the first committee of the UN has been taken off for the time being. It will be officially presented at the UN General Assembly probably by spring, only after it was properly discussed back here in Mongolia . Not only by the members of the Parliament, I hope. People also should understand what it means. I think what would help a lot will be the cooperation and consultations which your experts have with Austria or Switzerland, for example, can make you aware about different details from their experience one may not even imagine beforehand.
Switzerland has very strict neutrality. Austria, as you can see, is neutral but at the same time is a member of EU. They have a little bit milder kind of neutrality. Nevertheless they say they have taken a lot of steps, including on the international legal field, before they have declared neutrality. To make sure neutrality does not exclude them from activities they wanted to remain involved or get involved in future. If you are neutral and sometime would like to use your territory for military purposes, you can hardly change it. That`s always the problem. But on the other hand, many people say that for Mongolia it is quite logical to be neutral. You really have to understand for yourselves what you want to get from it.
How do you see the profit of being neutral?
Maybe, if you don`t want to take difficult decision, you just throw it from the table in advance by saying “Oh, we are neutral. We cannot have any position to that”. That may be one reason why being neutral looks attractive. But there are many other situations in which you would like to cooperate with the others somehow. And neutrality might prevent you. Or those who wanted you get involved in their case may now say “now we do not want you”. So you really should be careful. What can the internationally declared permanent neutrality bring to you – what positive and what negative? And what of the two is more important for Mongolia? It is your decision. Some people say that neutrality does not work in Asia much. Because you have to be somehow balancing between the two powers and if you say you are neutral in advance you can get completely stuck in between. I hope your politicians can discuss this properly and explain to public as real statesmen.
Diplomats speak for governments, they are not decision makers themselves.
How can diplomats help to maintain peace?
Well diplomats represent their governments. But IS is not an accepted government and it is out of any inter-governmental structure. Diplomats speak for governments, they are not decision makers themselves. We are rather “postmen”. Decision makers are sitting in the parliament. They have government to implement their decisions or prepare background documentation for new decisions. In parliamentary democracy of our type the government can only do for what it has a mandate from the parliament. So the biggest responsibility of decision on how to prevent terrorist attacks and such things lies with the parliament. That is why people sit in the parliament. That is their main responsibility. The government and their employees, including the diplomats, can only do their professional work in the framework decided by the parliament. Well, in our system I am formally sent abroad by the president and I represent the whole country of course, but in my actions I cannot go against the will of my government. And my government cannot go against our parliament. Diplomats can only help by being good professionals. We get in touch with people abroad, explain our country´s position, make other diplomats send well-informed good analysis or good explanations of our country´s points to their governments. We are like postmen. But we cannot change the world on our own. Sometimes if we think that our government is really going in wrong direction, probably we should get out of our office. Because you are doing what your system tells you to do. Similarly to the journalists we should be professional. We should not be just sending out gossips, rude to people. We should confirm things twice and understand the other side´s motives and objections, to be able to explain the whole issue properly to our governments or to our public. We only can hope decision makers once we would both be professional or responsible in that way.
In the next morning of Paris attack I read one comment from Internet that says Vanga is right. Once she said that Europe will loose and Islamic world will be a leader in the world.
Look at the history of the world. Things are changing. In the beginning of the first century, let`s say, the Europeans were learning from the Arabians. We have taken mathematics and algebra from Arabians and Persians. They were very educated, powerful and civilized. Many of us like the Czechs or Germans, compared to them were barbarians in those times. That`s true. We had very great civilization of Egypt long time ago which was even ethnically completely different from today`s Egypt people. So things are changing. But for recent several hundred years, for example, creativity mind and technology development were led by Europeans.
There are big discussions going on. Who is profiting from all those extremist attacks? Whether multiculturalism works, who may want to mix Europeans with more Arabian or African races? Even the human rights are put under question mark as, vis-à-vis barbaric cruelty of IS they seem to make our society powerless. The geo-political pie is huge and weaknesses of ones always played in hands and interest of the others. It`s not that Vanga said – we are just a part of history in which such changes happen. Everybody should, however, remain as close to his or her principle of what is good, what is worth living for, what deserves our respect and humanity. I do not want to put “Europe” against “Islamic world”– for me there is only ugly and inhuman behavior against the good one. Geographical or religious stickers do not work for me.
Thank you for your time.
We deliver you the interview with Ambassador of Czech Republic, Ivana Grollova.
WHEN I IMAGINE MONGOLIAN PEOPLE IN CZECH SOCIETY MOST OF THEM HARDWORKING
First of all, I would like to know visa conditions. Many Mongolians still apply for visa for travels to Czech Republic. But most of them are denied the visa.
I would like to start from the last question. You asked about Paris attacks. What happened in Paris is a tragedy. Because, so many people lost their lives uselessly.
At the same time it is clear that it is not a war against religion. But against extremist who want to dictate probably to one kind of civilization their own point of view. That's what I want to put together with your questions. Because as we spoke before, sometimes in Mongolia I`m asked to answer questions only connected to Mongolia. Things are connected of course. I`m not sure how much ordinary people realize that. Of course sometimes it`s difficult to see that you`re dealing with your daily problem and you don`t see that it may have a bigger picture.
Back to the question, you`re asking me about Mongolian workers in Czech, visas so on. Czech Republic is a member state of EU. At the same time it`s a member Schengen area. Schengen area is not the same as EU. In Schengen area there`re some countries who`re not members of EU. Also Great Britain is a member of EU, but not in the Schengen.
Schengen area`s pretty big. It covers many of the European countries. It aims to set up a system which would allow people to move freely throughout the Schengen. But at the same time you have to make the system working and not to be misused. To set up such system is very difficult.
Of course you want to be nice to visitors, people who live friendly. There`re already many examples of misuse of such rules who`re not coming with good wisdom, but who`re trying to misuse social payments for example. They come to one country and disappear.
Unfortunately, Schengen rules are sometimes very strict and also a little bit bureaucratic. That`s also a problem. The fact that we`re checking everybody whether he`s lying or not. It`s because many people in previous years have misused the system. So we were probably too open minded in the beginning.
According to the lessons we have learned the system becomes strict and stricter. We have different types of visas. Short term and long term visas and business, multi visas. Also relatives need to apply for different types of visa. Now what is the biggest problem for us is applications for work. This is not only visa. People are applying for jobs in Czech. Some companies cannot find workers in Czech. They look for foreign workers. There`s huge agenda around it. It`s difficult to say the amount. Last year more than 3000 people submitted for visa. Submitted means given the visas. But the number of applications for is quite a lot.
There are many Mongolians working in Czech Republic. How do you welcome and receive them?
Mongolians are not dangerous ones. When I imagine Mongolian people in Czech society most of them hardworking. They`re not insisting on changing the Czech society rules. Because they` re very polite. Usually they learn the language very quickly. Children are in school. There are no religious clashes. So in fact they are those with whom European society can live easily. From this point of view they do not represent danger. They are very welcome.
But on the other hand they should understand that they have to go through the same screening as everybody else. After the September 11 in New York we all have to go through the frames, we all have to show at the airport everything we have in our bags etc. It doesn`t mean that I am a terrorist. I have to get through the same rules as others. Because others were bad. That`s one of the things which I would really like people to understand and be patient. I know that some of them want to go to Czech Republic to work or either just to travel or to go to meeting.
But we are not issuing visas only for Czech Republic. Once visas are issued for Czech, Slovakia, Hungary or Poland, maybe in future Switzerland, they got the entrance into all Schengen system. Once the general danger exists that supporters of IS or other extremist organization may enter the Shengen area, all visa issuing offices all around the world must follow the same strict rules. Unfortunatelly, after the Paris or other terrorist attacks these rules can hardly become easier. We are not doing it on purpose, but we have to send all that information to the center and wait for the visa. That`s why the system is so slow.
SOME "CLEVER" MONGOLIANS SELLING ILLEGALLY PLACES IN THE LINE TO OTHER FELLOW MONGOLIANS
It takes time to check the materials and documents of people applying for a visa, right?
Yes. I know that some Mongolian people are very nervous. They just heard that they can get some job in Prague and they have invitation for one month. They cannot get time for appointment here at the embassy. That`s reality. Things should be prepared a little bit in advance. We`re trying to make the system at least a little bit quickly. Therefore, we need more human resource and financing. But it takes time to get financing from Czech Republic.
People should also see from that point of view. Some month ago we had some demonstrations in front of the embassy. The petitioners said they will just “force us” to give them visas. That is ridiculous. First, the country is not obliged to allow people to enter its borders. Even if the companies may request workers from abroad, it doesn`t mean that these future workers can go in without control. Our state still needs to know who they are, their applications must be processed.
Ordinary people who came from countryside, unless they paid to those “mediators” had no chance. It could not be influenced by the embassy, as it all was happening on the public street.
There`s one myth floating around people here. A few years ago people had to come and stay in a long line in front of the complex where our embassy resides. Those who, for example, came from countryside may have stayed there sometimes even for several days. We unfortunately found out that some "clever" Mongolians, I`m sorry to say that, were doing “bad things” to other fellow Mongolians - they started to sell illegally places in that line. They came in the evening to the parking place, selling the “places” for the following morning and their person was then selecting the people in the line next morning before they could even reach our gates. Ordinary people who came from countryside, unless they paid to those “mediators” had no chance. It could not be influenced by the embassy, as it all was happening on the public street.
When we found out this was the way Mongolians were blocking other Mongolians to get here, the waiting system has been changed into the electronic Visapoint. It is designed from our capital to allow everybody to get the appointment time in advance and to come just for that particular day and hour. Again, some people have more time to sit around their computer and wait for a free appointment slot to make their reservation, others do not. Those complain that it is impossible to get to the system. But that is not exactly like this and there is no technical interruption of the system. Our system works properly. Its capacity, however, is limited to working hours of so little working staff that we have. There are simply more applicants than we can process within one month. Those looking for a time slot simply need to be more patient, do not give up once the system says “all slots are taken, try late”, because the new ones may appear just in a few moments – so people should really keep trying again. People started to gossip. Not even gossip, we even saw public advertisements in newspapers promising `If you pay me I will get appointment for you`. This is something we can do nothing about. These are, again, just Mongolians who try to make illegal money on the others. I am sure they do not pay tax of this profit, I am sure that they do not have license for such business. Maybe, some have license for translation but there is no such official agency in UB to set up appointment with the embassy. Our Embassy has no agreement with any outsourcing agency, our Visapoint should be accessible to anybody directly. The only money visa should cost (around 60 EUR) are paid at the Embassy´s counter under constant supervision of cameras. It is not technically possible to block several time slots by one person and then sell the slots to others. Each appointment must already be made by real applicant who then brings all documents to the interview. But as long as people are willingly to paying money to these illegal “mediators” to wait around the computer and get the time slot in Visapoint for them, the problem is rather on Mongolian side, I am afraid.
Really?
Yes. If you pay to others, in fact you are helping those people to do illegal profit and make the situation even worse. Those people are just making easy money on troubles of the others.
Did police take any actions against those people?
We have already spoken with the Police authorities and they are ready to take measures, prosecute particular cases. People keep complaining, however, but usually do not announce particular name of whom they paid. So even the police can do very little. We are in constant touch with the Mongolian Ministry of Foreign Affairs as well as police. I am sure they also do their best to stop these illegal “mediators”.
On our side we are trying to get some reinforcement, although the premises of our embassy are small (In socialism the whole building belonged to the Czechoslovak Embassy, now we are only hiring offices in it, the building belongs to a private Mongolian owner,) We have reconstructed our part to make two “teller” windows so that we could proceed faster and serve more people simultaneously. That is a technical problem on our side which I admit.
Before criticizing our hard working staff, however, people should realize one fact instead: There are not many Schengen countries who keep their embassies in UB. In fact, we took the burden to represent others to make it easier for Mongolians to travel to Europe. Unfortunately, we did not get any support for that so far. We still work with the same amount of people, still in technically very difficult conditions. And one day still has only 24 hours…
To blame those who are actually trying to help Mongolians to get visas from here and not to be obliged to travel for them to Beijing, is unfair. Sometimes, I am really sorry for our employees here. They are really doing their best, work long after the working hours. As you know, Mongolians very often bring half of their documents or bring them old, invalid, even fake, they do not fill their application forms properly. Instead of accepting all required papers within several minutes, we spend much more time on nearly every applicant. When I talk to other Czech consulates in different countries, they say that usually one applicant is processed in 10 minutes. Because, their applicants just bring everything prepared and on due time – so they can just put stamps and the applicant can go home. But here, people bring passport which has all pages full or lack half of the necessary documents - and get angry like if that was our mistake! So disciplined approach is needed from the Mongolian side, too.
Unfortunately, it`s Mongolian mentality.
See? Again the same disrespect to our rules! Yes, these Mongolians have “specific Mongolian mentality”. Fine, but they people want to go to Europe! And Europe has its own kind of rules Let`s call it “European standards”. And it is very bureaucratic sometimes. But you want to go there. So to tell us “ you have to understand our different mentality” makes no logic! We could reply: “Ok, so why do you go to Europe if you do not want to follow our rules? Are you sure we need you?” These are the questions people have to ask themselves before they start demanding entrance to someone else´s home.
Yes, we want tourists, our companies want workers. But if you want to go and live or work somewhere, first of all you have to accept rules of that country there, have not you? From the beginning you say "Well this is my mentality. You have to understand and take me as I am." But in that case, some people in Europe start to feel pushed, inconvenient, and start asking our politicians "Do we really need them?".
WHY YOUR CHILDREN STILL DO NOT HAVE NORMAL TOILETS AT SCHOOLS?
Refugees caused many problems to many European countries last year. What do you think?
I started this interview from the Paris tragedy. Of course, that situation is much more complicated and that particular attack was even committed mostly by people who have already lived in Europe for a long time and where considered Europeans.
Many of those Islamist extremists may be just a result of insufficient social adaptation, lack of inclusiveness or, in a contrary, lack of their will to accept the rules of a country they were brought or even born into many years ago. I am sure, their parents were looking for better lives for their children there and I really cannot not elaborate here deeper on reasons why their children still remain full of complexes and frustration from being unsuccessful. It is clear, however, that they have started to hate everything around them – although they are not willing to return back to the countries their predecessors or they themselves came from. Nowadays, when we see thousands of refugees, who are technically illegal immigrants (i.e. without proper visas and identification documents), many citizens of European countries start asking “Why would we be obliged to help you if the life in your country is miserable?” There are many Europeans who feel we are partly obliged to help just out of human solidarity. Some think West is even a part of the problem because there are wars in those countries initially provoked “by us” (meaning the West, the US and their allies etc.). Of course we all should at least try to imagine what horrible decisions desperate parents have to be doing to get their kids to safety from bombs and constant fire. Yes, things are connected and it is up to politicians to help their citizens to keep proper balance between humanistic and humanitarian approach and quite legitimate concerns over the security of their own children.
We all should at least try to imagine what horrible decisions desperate parents have to be doing to get their kids to safety from bombs and constant fire.
We are in Mongolia, nevertheless. Thanks God, there is no war here. Yes, conditions are difficult here for many. - Yes, since democratic transition started, there was a long Asian crisis, only minimal economic development for nearly the whole decade. Since 2000, however, so many foreign donors, countries, international organizations have provided much money for development aid and cooperation projects to Mongolia. Therefor I do not see good reason why - going back to “De facto” Jargalsaikhan´s alarming commentary, we still have children, especially in the countryside schools, who have to use outside “dry” toilets and have no running water in their schools! You know there were billions of dollars provided to different projects here in peaceful democratic Mongolia within the recent 25 years. So why your children still do not have normal toilets at schools? Why life is so difficult for many? That`s what you should ask. And it is great that in Mongolia you are free to ask such questions?`. Why then many of your people still prefer to go to the Czech Republic to work in very difficult conditions where they only get a very low salary? Even those who have graduated from universities here! Yes, it is fine they are getting foreign experience and regular salary. But it is such a low salary that the Czechs do not even want to take that job. That is why companies are looking for workers from abroad. Why do these Mongolians have to do it? Because, the life in Mongolia is difficult for them. These are questions citizens should ask their governments and politicians at home – and in democratic Mongolia they can do that. The Europeans (or Americans, Japanese or others) are requested to issue visas, because life of the applicants is difficult and they want to move. But that would hardly solve the situation in their own country!
I expressed my concerns so openly – because we would rather like to help Mongolia to become a nice place to live, than to be helping its citizens to escape the life here.
IN FACT, WE NEVER HAD ANY LICENSE OR PREFERENCES HERE
Can you tell me total amount of donations from Czech Republic?
We simply wanted to help and boost your development. It was not charity. We knew each other from the socialism era - and our people really loved their Mongolian friends and colleagues, your beautiful country. In fact, we never had any license or preferences here. During socialist COMECON system of international economic cooperation we were told by Moscow we should do, but we were not shareholders here. What was excellent, however we had many Mongolians learning at our schools. Until now they are important politicians, experts, businessmen, engineers or artists here. We have developed close understanding between our countries. In 1989 we had the same “peaceful” revolution as you did slightly later and went also through transition. Those were not times to invest abroad - we had our own problems and therefore it can be said that even our development cooperation projects were never meant as “ticket” for future mining licenses or purchase preferences.
We were the first ones from ex-socialist countries to start contribute ODA (which means internationally agreed development aid) funds. The “ODA” contributions by developed countries are supervised by OECD and the newly democratic Czech Republic put Mongolia among its 5 priority countries who got the biggest portions of its ODA since the very beginning in 1996 We started from much smaller percentage of our GDP then pledged by more developed countries, but still, in case of Mongolia it helped to implement several interesting model projects. We were doing very different projects here and I am always proud that majority of them were “fitting” the real needs (though our methodology was probably too weak to endure their further sustainability once the financing from our side got to the end).
Main philosophy of those projects was to help you to help yourself in a way that we were showing you new methodologies, new technologies. For example, doing model of small hospitals that you can have really working in remote areas – which has been recently picked up and is being promoted throughout the whole country by WHO.
Since 1996 the Czech Republic has provided development cooperation of roughly 50 million US dollars. You cannot, however, judge this amount from the point of view of money only. The value lays somewhere else. We implemented rather small projects, but with hope that they would bring much more results to Mongolians afterwards – in sense of know-how for their own future businesses, agriculture, medicine, veterinary or e.g. hydrogeology state sectors etc. This impact is difficult to measure in money. And it was not investment either, since we have not got any profit from it for our own companies.
After 2000 much bigger donors “discovered” Mongolia. Many of them gave your country soft loans, many helped by projects but in much larger scale than we could (f, e.g. the Millennium challenge project by the USA). So there were more money coming in then just from the Czech Republic.
I am afraid, however, that you can see a lot of luxury cars in streets bought on those projects money. But the core purpose of such projects was different. I think hospitals and schools should had been built and improved first.
I AM A LITTLE BIT OUTRAGED, HOWEVER, WHY FOREIGNERS HAD TO HELP?
Can you tell us about ongoing projects supported by the Czech Government?
Embassy itself can recommend the Czech Government to support also several projects each year to help mutual trade or economic cooperation, one or two projects focusing the so called “transformation” or human rights area and several so-called small local projects designed to support civil society in realization of their useful ideas and endeavours. In previous years we have cooperated with many NGOs, schools, with the special 116th school, with Association of blind or Hope hospice, children´s eco-clubs or Gobi B national park - to give just few examples. Last year we helped to purchase some furniture for a kindergarten for children with disabilities in need of special treatment.
Children in similarly specialized school in Ulaanbaatar had no dining and after-school facilities. For this reason they could not stay in the school in the afternoon and their parents could not have a full time job as they had to pick up their kids just after the morning classes. We were happy to be able to help them to solve that difficulty.
I am a little bit outraged, however, too. Why foreigners had to help? Just next to these schools there are huge pieces of land used for billiard clubs or karaoke buildings. Why in today´s Mongolian society does not education and care of disadvantaged groups have priority before entertainment? We seem to be selling whole UB just to developers. In some areas one can think that nobody seems to be care about pedestrian sidewalks along the streets and places where kids could play.
As long as the citizens do not ask questions and request such things, we all are just helping the developers to make money, while the city is growing less and less bearable for people and their daily life. I am afraid of that It starts resembling rather “money laundry” hubs in many developing countries with richness of minerals but poor society. Actually, for me it is always interesting to see how many members of parliaments or governments in different countries live with their families in their respective capital cities. I find it an interesting sign of responsibility before the society, of trust and pride of their own policy-making.
Now we have a forestry project in Selenge aimag. Our experts are not planting trees for you, they are teaching your own experts, cooperatives and students how to nurse them themselves and, most importantly, how to take care of the forest and organize the whole forest-connected area of economy. Although for business it may always be easier to import wood from Siberia, the ability to organize sustainable forestry in Mongolia will be even more important in coming years rather because of the climate change and mining impact on your carbon emissions as well as wild animal life. Just some four decades ago Ikh Tenger valley was full of trees - now it is empty. There, in Ikh Tenger, this cannot be connected simply with desertification, pollution or industrial lodging. The lack of proper forestry sector skills was also the reason. To restore forests and make them grow in a sustainable manner, you need proper knowledge and skills that, logically, were not a part of traditional nomadic set of wisdom. That is why our experts have been called in to bring them here and help your own professionals.
We seem to be selling whole UB just to developers. In some areas one can think that nobody seems to be care about pedestrian sidewalks along the streets and places where kids could play. As long as the citizens do not ask questions and request such things, we all are just helping the developers to make money, while the city is growing less and less bearable for people and their daily life.
Also we have one project in Murun city, helping to set up model water use planning, water protection, distribution and cleaning system for an urban area of such scale.
Another project in realization deals with de-contamination of several sites previously highly contaminated by industrial waste or storages of dangerous materials. Unfortunately, you have some places literally “poisoned”. Our project experts, following your Ministry of Environment (and Tourism) request, have mapped most of them and some of them are now to be cleaned. Through that process we are also showing your experts how to store such dangerous waste properly and keep it as safe as possible till the time when it would be possible to destroy it completely. Complete liquidation is, of course, the best option. Most probably you would get dispose of such hazardous burden in specialized facilities abroad, because to build your own capacities would be unnecessarily too expensive. So far, however, Mongolia was not even allowed to transport its waste through territory of other countries for final liquidation, for it could not prove that its packaging and storage of that waste would be up to proper international safety standards. I have noticed that this may change soon – also with help of our experts on the ground – and some law amendments and international agreements to this end may be adopted in near future.
We are currently implementing several “big” development projects that are designed to finish in the end of 2017. Maybe, commencing 2018 we will be executing rather different type projects – that is to be decided by the new upcoming development cooperation strategy by our Government. For example, we may prefer projects supporting companies that already cooperate with our businesses by training their workers or we may provide more scholarships. Currently, beside the development projects only 2-3 Mongolians can go to study in the Czech Republic on stipend fully paid for by the Czech Government. Usually one can study in English, one or two in Czech language. Our overall budget for development cooperation has not allowed us to dedicate more money to students from Mongolia so far as the rest of the money had to be divided among other developing countries, too.
SOMETIMES PEOPLE GET JUST PAID MONEY TO GO AND DEMONSTRATE WITHOUT PROPER UNDERSTANDING OF THE ISSUE
Last June a state owned Mongolian company and a Czech private company established a new joint company named Mon - Czech - Uranium. How many nuclear stations do you have in your country and how big is the portion of atomic energy in the whole energy mix of the Czech Republic?
Our energy mix is quite balanced - we still keep some portion of energy from coal as we have large domestic coal production. Substantial portion is, however, also from so-called green or renewable energy sources and the nuclear energy is one of them. Plus we have big and many small hydro power stations on our rivers etc.
We also have uranium mines on our own territory. We know what it means about security, danger of pollution and so on
Yes, we have experts experienced in atomic energy. We also have uranium mines on our own territory. We know what it means about security, danger of pollution and so on. Diamo is a state company like MonAtom. Diamo experts are now mostly concentrating on reclamation and rehabilitation projects of the closed mines. But of course, they were experts of mining and use of uranium for peaceful means as well.
The company called Uranium Industry which created a joint company with your state company MonAtom, as you mentioned, is a private company. I understand they are planning to use some Diamo experts as subcontractors.
How do Czech people react to atomic stations? Did they organize any demonstrations against this kind of project? Here some scientists and economists support atomic energy. But last year there was a demonstration in front of French embassy.
Actually I am in touch with your National Security Council experts. These concerns need to be taken seriously and I am happy we can help with our experience to this end. Demonstration is a legitimate means of expression of opinion. Another question is, however, when sometimes people get just paid money to go and demonstrate without proper understanding of the issue. We had a lot of demonstrations in the Czech Republic in fact organized by green NGO`s from Austria.
Those may not be always genuine protest, or rather – the organizers just used little knowledge of facts and misused fear of common citizens from the unknown. Nevertheless, uranium can be dangerous and each responsible government needs to admit it. You have a lot of it in your nature. Naturally Gobi is very radioactive.
There are lots of things people should know about uranium and focus on proper safety rules when dealing with it, From one nuclear energy conference I remember it took one Skandinavian country experts nearly 20 years to convince inhabitants of sea shore villages that radioactive waste storages far off shore do not represent danger to them. Well, that Government could also hide its intention about the storage – but that Government found it much more responsible towards its own society and also its own political image to play fair and make people understand first.
Here in Mongolia, I am afraid, we have also witnessed rather uninformed protests when it came to uranium so far. Some people insist their cattle have died because of uranium mining. But to my limited knowledge, there was in fact no active uranium mining so far! There were only few probes. I still think the demonstrations against experienced and, I am sure, careful, French company Areva, for example, were bigger bubble than necessary.
But it`s my own opinion. Yes you have to be careful about uranium. On the other hand it does not mean to be hysterical about it. Agree that people should be aware of potential risks and follow the Government´s decision making process with informed and constructive participation. Here comes also responsibility of journalists. There is so much information about uranium available. Yes, most of it in English or other languages, probably not that much in Mongolian.
The journalists should help explaining people its nature, possibilities of its peaceful and harmless use for example in medicine, about the balanced levels of radiation which are not dangerous. Journalists can bring good and bad examples of proper supervision and safety regulations and safeguards from all over the world. Journalists themselves should be better educated to this end before they start commenting on this complex issue.
Not only spreading gossips, but bringing real data, helping to educate the others in objective, systematic and balanced manner. Before the new mine is open there should be good analysis of its potential environmental impact, the Government itself should probably request it. There need to be good knowledge of the pre-mining situation which can be then systematically compared with real developments on the ground during the mining and transportation of the uranium ore, yellow cake as well as the dug up dirt.
Not everything in our nature is just result of mining. You also have to be objective. Construction and servicing of the nuclear power-station is another even far more complex an issue and requires even more expertise – and awareness. But so far the Czech public seems to feel well informed and, though cautious, does understand this type of energy as one of the in fact most environmentally friendly one.
At the same time, our decontamination experts have found several abandoned industrial sites or storages on Mongolian territory which are contaminated from chemical wastes, for instance, and are already much more dangerous and those suspected uranium probes! For example, the water going out from some industrial outlets of some cities is literally poisoned. There are photographs of cattle whose organs were tore out by regularly drunk such poisoned water. But nearly nobody demonstrates about that, nobody is asking who is responsible for the pollution and for the cleaning.
Can you give us more details about Uranium Industry company? Who leads this company and investors?
One of the owners of it is a citizen of the Czech Republic, geologist by profession. They are registered in publicly accessible register of businesses so everybody can get the information from Internet. I am not aware about details of the contract between them and MonAtom. The private company is not obliged to inform the Embassy once our Government was not a part of the agreement.
I can only hope it will be a good project with all European standards and norms observed on both sides.
IF PEOPLE LOOSE MONEY HERE THEY ARE NOT INTERESTED IN COMING ANYMORE
You`ve been working here since 2012. What do you think about instability of governments in Mongolia? We all know that rulers change very often. Does it influence you?
You mean as a diplomat mission?
Yes.
Since so far most of the people who are in Mongolian politics I happen to know for years. It is not therefore not that difficult to me to get re-oriented. I just have to remember which post they are occupying currently now. But without joking - these frequent changes do not make very good picture about the country. But I even don`t think changes itself have to be the biggest problem. In Switzerland for example, rulers change so often. Italy or even Japan change Governments pretty often, too. The problem is when here all the promises of previous government get forgotten, abandoned. That`s the problem.
If the system still works the fact that you change several people on the top does not necessarily influence people. Unless, with the ministers you do not change also the whole staff and do not bring completely new people who have no clue about the agenda, rules, no institutional memory, who are only loyal relatives or friends but not professionals. If normal business goes on in the environment where rules are set up clear you do not even need to know the deputy minister. Company comes, talks to other companies, passes some formalities and starts doing business to mutual profit and satisfaction. From that profit it pays salaries and social insurance to its employees and tax to both or only one country budget given mutual double-taxation agreements of those particular countries.
In fact, in market economy companies do not need governments for nearly anything else. Here, people understand that first of all you have to know people in the Government. Why? Second problem is that rules change so often. You simply do not know what will happen in a half year. Yes, we have laws. But laws can be changed so often. We may have some approvals and stamps for cooperation projects - but you change the ministries next year and this ministry is not mandated for submitting approvals to the same issue anymore and the approvals given by previous ministries are not valid anymore. That`s the problem. Change Prime minister how often you want. But let the working and effective system stay. You, the citizens have to insist your Government and Parliament work that way if you want your country to be considered worthy investing money in.
Many feel victims of the so-called “Long name law”. I personally think that law is important and quite good. Unfortunately it came late.
We are trying to bring many companies here so they can work together with Mongolian partners. But businessmen tell us they do not trust Mongolia. We had some companies who were taken by surprise while they put in some money. Things have changed – and their investment is simply “gone with the wind”. Many feel victims of the so-called “Long name law”. I personally think that law is important and quite good.
Unfortunately it came late. You simply did not realize its need at the very beginning. The environmental impact consideration, I have mentioned earlier, had to come before the licenses have been issued. You realized the need to protect invaluable water resources a little bit late. Well, that is unpleasant but still manageable. You only have to face the fact that several investors have lost money, because their licenses were stopped. I do not say they have to get their licenses or permissions for mining in water basins back. But of course, they need to get their loss reimbursed, paid back somehow. They invested their own money. You just cannot take it from them. Otherwise they won`t come again.
This trust for the investors is very important. I keep hearing questions: How much have the Czechs invested here? And I keep asking “What for?” Investment should be profitable for both the Mongolian partner and the investor. If people loose money here they are not interested in coming anymore. Mongolia could be much richer. If things were not jumping from one extreme to another so often, if decision and rules are not made so ad hoc, at the last minute, as we say “sewed by hot needle”. You mentioned visas and "the Mongolian mentality". Yes, not only visa applications but many other things are done in the very last moment. That's the problem. New attractive idea becomes fashionable and directions change again.
Yes, I know, this is nomadic. Yes, I understand. Well, I am explaining, on the other hand, why other people who may have been making their money for generation and measure twice before they jump, like the Czechs for example, still wonder if this is the stable and reliable place to invest in. Business is not about love, sympathies or emotions. It is highly pragmatic and down-to-earth.
Mongolia will lead UN`s Human rights council from 2016 till 2018. Did Czech Republic support Mongolia during the selection?
I used to work at UN in New York. So I had a chance to see how elections usually happen. Very often just have another candidations. So you just make deals with other countries. We will support you now. You will support us later. But in this case, from the point of Czech government this was very genuine support to Mongolia. Yes, we hope that you will support us – not only at the next elections, but in our work there. That you will be supporting the same or at least close principles and values as we do.
They are “bad guys” in the Council as well. Let`s say it very openly. They are there because they want to stop someone other`s ideas. UN represents the whole world. When I say “bad guys”, I am just joking. You simply have some ideas and you want to adopt and accept them. Others think their ideas are better. It is constant fight. From this point of view I think that Mongolia`s position is quite unique. Because in principle you close to our European understanding of human rights in many ways.
And speaking in the Council for the others means you should improve your human rights protection conditions and records even more. Regardless the welcome improvements in the Criminal Code, including the final formal abolition of capital punishment, the Mongolian journalism is still not really free yet. The level of professional education and quality is a matter of those journalists themselves, not state, but there are still legislative barriers which make it too risky and often impossible for the journalists to do free investigative journalism responsible first of all to democratic society.
Also the situation of domestic violence in Mongolia really needs to improve. The Parliament still owns the society improved law on this and to implement it even the police needs to be supported from state budget. It is not only about policemen having better cars or being better equipped with guns. It is also about their knowledge of the problem, about legal provision that allow them to take action against the attackers and protect real victims. So being a member of UN Human rights council is also a kind of obligation in front of others.
On the other hand, as a member of the Council you may be pushed to vote on some things which is not always easy to make a choice. You may be pushed to vote on resolutions which may not to be very well accepted by your neighbors, for example, or some other countries you want to do business with. In that sense your diplomats mostly have to be very professional, able to talk to other members of Human rights council to make the wording of those resolutions as close to the principles you like and that are, at the same time, acceptable for others.
Or to be brave enough and go and vote against the others even if they are your best business partner. It brings responsibility mostly on the shoulders of your diplomats – but the whole country should be aware of caviats of such international exposure. That is why I am glad that you are asking me about it.
YOU HAVE TO BE SOMEHOW BALANCING BETWEEN THE TWO POWERS AND IF YOU SAY YOU ARE NEUTRAL IN ADVANCE YOU CAN GET COMPLETELY STUCK IN BETWEEN
Now I would like to hear your ideas about neutralism ideas of President Ts.Elbegdorj offering. But parliament member G.Uyanga for example tells that we need to be very careful and she has a doubt about it.
You Mongolians should think about the issue first. I keep hearing it was an initiative by the President Ts.Elbegdorj. So I guess, he had thought it through. But probably did not discuss it with others enough. He may have had exact timing in mind for which he needed to announce the initiative publicly first, regardless the fact the draft law has not been adopted at home yet. I cannot see into his head.
I think it`s quite good, however, that draft resolution in the first committee of the UN has been taken off for the time being. It will be officially presented at the UN General Assembly probably by spring, only after it was properly discussed back here in Mongolia . Not only by the members of the Parliament, I hope. People also should understand what it means. I think what would help a lot will be the cooperation and consultations which your experts have with Austria or Switzerland, for example, can make you aware about different details from their experience one may not even imagine beforehand.
Switzerland has very strict neutrality. Austria, as you can see, is neutral but at the same time is a member of EU. They have a little bit milder kind of neutrality. Nevertheless they say they have taken a lot of steps, including on the international legal field, before they have declared neutrality. To make sure neutrality does not exclude them from activities they wanted to remain involved or get involved in future. If you are neutral and sometime would like to use your territory for military purposes, you can hardly change it. That`s always the problem. But on the other hand, many people say that for Mongolia it is quite logical to be neutral. You really have to understand for yourselves what you want to get from it.
How do you see the profit of being neutral?
Maybe, if you don`t want to take difficult decision, you just throw it from the table in advance by saying “Oh, we are neutral. We cannot have any position to that”. That may be one reason why being neutral looks attractive. But there are many other situations in which you would like to cooperate with the others somehow. And neutrality might prevent you. Or those who wanted you get involved in their case may now say “now we do not want you”. So you really should be careful. What can the internationally declared permanent neutrality bring to you – what positive and what negative? And what of the two is more important for Mongolia? It is your decision. Some people say that neutrality does not work in Asia much. Because you have to be somehow balancing between the two powers and if you say you are neutral in advance you can get completely stuck in between. I hope your politicians can discuss this properly and explain to public as real statesmen.
Diplomats speak for governments, they are not decision makers themselves.
How can diplomats help to maintain peace?
Well diplomats represent their governments. But IS is not an accepted government and it is out of any inter-governmental structure. Diplomats speak for governments, they are not decision makers themselves. We are rather “postmen”. Decision makers are sitting in the parliament. They have government to implement their decisions or prepare background documentation for new decisions. In parliamentary democracy of our type the government can only do for what it has a mandate from the parliament. So the biggest responsibility of decision on how to prevent terrorist attacks and such things lies with the parliament. That is why people sit in the parliament. That is their main responsibility. The government and their employees, including the diplomats, can only do their professional work in the framework decided by the parliament. Well, in our system I am formally sent abroad by the president and I represent the whole country of course, but in my actions I cannot go against the will of my government. And my government cannot go against our parliament. Diplomats can only help by being good professionals. We get in touch with people abroad, explain our country´s position, make other diplomats send well-informed good analysis or good explanations of our country´s points to their governments. We are like postmen. But we cannot change the world on our own. Sometimes if we think that our government is really going in wrong direction, probably we should get out of our office. Because you are doing what your system tells you to do. Similarly to the journalists we should be professional. We should not be just sending out gossips, rude to people. We should confirm things twice and understand the other side´s motives and objections, to be able to explain the whole issue properly to our governments or to our public. We only can hope decision makers once we would both be professional or responsible in that way.
In the next morning of Paris attack I read one comment from Internet that says Vanga is right. Once she said that Europe will loose and Islamic world will be a leader in the world.
Look at the history of the world. Things are changing. In the beginning of the first century, let`s say, the Europeans were learning from the Arabians. We have taken mathematics and algebra from Arabians and Persians. They were very educated, powerful and civilized. Many of us like the Czechs or Germans, compared to them were barbarians in those times. That`s true. We had very great civilization of Egypt long time ago which was even ethnically completely different from today`s Egypt people. So things are changing. But for recent several hundred years, for example, creativity mind and technology development were led by Europeans.
There are big discussions going on. Who is profiting from all those extremist attacks? Whether multiculturalism works, who may want to mix Europeans with more Arabian or African races? Even the human rights are put under question mark as, vis-à-vis barbaric cruelty of IS they seem to make our society powerless. The geo-political pie is huge and weaknesses of ones always played in hands and interest of the others. It`s not that Vanga said – we are just a part of history in which such changes happen. Everybody should, however, remain as close to his or her principle of what is good, what is worth living for, what deserves our respect and humanity. I do not want to put “Europe” against “Islamic world”– for me there is only ugly and inhuman behavior against the good one. Geographical or religious stickers do not work for me.
Thank you for your time.