The Swiss Agency for Development and Cooperation has been operating in Mongolia for 20 years. What are the highlights among the projects implemented during this period?
Switzerland worked in four main sectors: climate change and environmental sustainability (35%), democratic governance and gender equality (47%), inclusive economic development (12%), and various smaller ones like culture, humanitarian aid, etc. (6%).
The question is, where have we been able to produce sustainable results? After 20 years of work, we can clearly see that, especially when SDC was able to include all relevant different actors at the different levels (micro, meso, macro) (see, among others, civil population, government at local and national level, research institutions, etc.), impressive results were achieved. In these cases, where our approaches and ideas in innovation were anchored in laws and regulations, we can speak about success. However, once approved, these laws and regulations also have to be implemented. This requires approved and assigned budget lines. If this happens, I think SDC reached what we wanted, and we can say it's really sustainable over time, even if we are not here anymore. We are proud to see that different projects which we closed even 10 years ago have become real sustainable results. The government is assigning the budget. That is excellent. These projects have become part of the Mongolian system.

Let me mention a concrete example, one of our successful projects, the One-Stop-Shop of public services. You probably know, or have heard about, the one-stop-shop centers because, today, they are everywhere in the country. These are places where you can go when you are looking for public administrative services, such as the renewal of your passport or documentation of your marriage. Perhaps you just need a stamp on one of your documents, or are looking for information. Today, you get the most required official documents all at just one place. Before, you had to go from one agency/ministry to the next, and everywhere you had to pay, and of course, it was very time-intensive. Additionally, today, hundreds of these governmental services are available online. Besides costs and time, everything is clear, transparent, and processes do not allow any corruption. These services trace back to an SDC initiative. These ideas have been further developed by the local governments. Today, besides public services, you can find banks, mobile companies, or insurances at the same place.

Let me share with you another example, this time from the agriculture sector. You may know that SDC started with its presence in Mongolia in 2001 during the severe dzud. Mongolia faced a harsh winter/dzud, even worse than this last winter, where many herders lost their livestock. Our humanitarian aid support came to assist the herders with cash. The herders were able to replace their lost animals and buy hay. Through that, they could reestablish their economic situation and survive. Three years later, the Swiss decided to open an office in Ulaanbaatar. 

We decided not only to work with the herders and livestock but also to improve the food security of the country. In the early 2000s, Mongolians imported a lot of vegetables, mostly potatoes, from China. Therefore, SDC improved the quality of the potato seeds, together with your research center of the Ministry of Agriculture, Food, and Light Industry. They developed seed potatoes adapted to specific climate conditions in Mongolia. By 2015, you were nearly self-sufficient in potatoes. And I think we can see, especially during the closed borders of COVID time, how important it is to be self-sufficient in food production. The potato project was a success. Therefore, your government asked SDC to support the development of different vegetable seeds—equally adapted to specific climate conditions of Mongolia—such as carrots, beetroots, and other vegetables.

Today, the production of vegetables of Mongolia has reached 70%. You don't have to import them anymore. And again, the COVID years have shown clearly that it is very important to have your own production, as for carrots or cabbage. So, for me, these are two completely different but really successful stories.

This year also marks the 60th anniversary of diplomatic relations between Switzerland and Mongolia. Please, mention the highlights of cooperation between the two countries.

Well, I think that our two countries, Mongolia and Switzerland,  have a very deep and long-standing friendship. We have shared basic values. We are both democratic countries. We both are highlighting the importance to the respect of human rights, gender, and free media. We both are neutral and landlocked countries. So I think these shared values and situation means we are both really building on peace. Although, somehow, we have perhaps different strategies, but the goal is important, contribution to peace and wellbeing of the people. 

For the 60th anniversary of the establishment diplomatic relations between our countries, a special commemorative stamp was issued by the Mongol Post. The stamp represents the deep cultural connections between our countries, showcasing our shared love for music and animals. You can see a small flute here, a tribute to a collaborative project with The HU band. The HU has a marketing company, Hunnu Fashion, which creates unique products. During the COVID-19 pandemic, we supported Hunnu Fashion to develop new products, including those made with traceable yak leather.

SDC Green Gold project worked closely with herders to improve the quality of their animals, reduce herd sizes, and register their livestock in databases maintained by the Ministry of Food, Agriculture, and Light Industry, and the Agency of Veterinary Services. When you purchase products from Hunnu Fashion, you can scan a QR code to trace the yak leather back to the specific herder.

SDC is proud to support the introduction of new fibers, such as yak and baby camel wool, as well as yak leather. These initiatives have provided herders with valuable alternatives and improved the quality of their wool and leather. For example, in 2016, high-quality yak wool was introduced. Excellent quality products made of yak wool are now available from both large and small cashmere and wool producers, such as Gobi and Mukh Cashmere. Additionally, we supported The HU band reintroduce an ancient flute (Tsuur) by financially supporting its revival at the Zavkhan Conservatory. This rare musical instrument, once almost forgotten, is now taught and played again, and last year it was added to UNESCO's cultural heritage list.

Furthermore, the Bank of Mongolia designed and printed a commemorative banknote on silver for the 60th anniversary in collaboration with SDC. This limited edition note celebrates peace, featuring a peace poem by Member of Parliament D.Tsogtbaatar and the Edelweiss flower, a protected symbol of peace in both our countries. This partnership highlights our shared values and the enduring bond between our nations.

Why banknote? Is there any specific stories behind it? 
Yes, this traces back to another project. From 2005 to 2019, SDC supported the Sustainable Artisanal Mining project. Switzerland is Mongolia's second most important export partner for gold. Annually, Mongolia collects around 20-23 tons of gold, which is sent to Switzerland for refining. Now, approximately 30 percent of this gold, processed through the Bank of Mongolia, comes from artisanal miners.

In the past, illegal mining involved child labor and the use of harmful chemicals like mercury, which damaged the environment. Additionally, there was significant illegal trade with China, and artisanal miners faced unsafe conditions while transporting their gold to Ulaanbaatar.

Therefore, Switzerland, in collaboration with the Bank of Mongolia and the Standardization and Metrology Agency, established one-stop service centers in Darkhan and Bayankhongor provinces for miners. At these centers, artisanal miners can bring their gold to be melted, assayed, and certified for quality. Once the gold gets certified, miners can directly take their assayed gold to any bank, bypassing middlemen. They can receive immediate payment or a loan of up to 80 percent of the gold's total value. This streamlined process reduces corruption and illegal trade.

Although we concluded this project in 2019, the Mongolian Government and the Bank of Mongolia have continued to expand the services. Now, miners can also bring silver, showcasing the project's growth. The positive reception and enthusiasm from stakeholders highlight its success.

Moreover, we supported the Bank of Mongolia and the government in legalizing artisanal miners. Previously operating illegally, miners now work legally, contracting with local authorities, rehabilitating the land, and paying social insurance and taxes. This project is not only a success story but also a win-win for everyone involved.

And when did this project start?
The project started in 2005 and ended in 2019. It was a long process, which is why we received a special banknote issued from the Bank of Mongolia. That is really special, and of course, we are very proud of it.

You mentioned traceable yak leather. Why is traceability so important?
Traceability ensures that the leather products can't be copied and increases its value. Since yak leather is used, the herder gets additional income. In order to introduce yak leather into production, the veterinary services had to be improved in Mongolia. Previously, yak wool was not as soft as cashmere. Now, if you touch yak wool, it has good quality and is much softer. Because the quality is good, the market price of yak wool is in demand. The high quality of yak wool is due to the well-treated animals, and each animal is registered in a database. It's a big value chain, and the whole chain is necessary to ensure better income for the herders.

For our 60th anniversary of the diplomatic relations, we made a friendship cheese created with Swiss know-how and Mongolian milk. During the Naadam Festival, we also hosted wrestlers from Switzerland in Mongolia. Together with the Mongolian Wrestling Association, they had a friendship tournament in Baganuur district. In Switzerland, wrestling is our national sport, called Schwingen. It is a very popular sport and tradition for us. Every three years, we have a competition of wrestlers, and the best winner is called "King" by the people. Two of our Kings (champions) came to Mongolia.

How much budget Swiss Agency for Development and Cooperation contribute.
Over the 20 years, SDC has invested around 260 million Swiss francs, equivalent to approximately 287 million USD today. With this amount, SDC has implemented over 350 small and large projects in Mongolia. However, it is important to mention that this amount does not include office costs, staff salaries, transport costs, etc.

In my personal opinion, it seems that Mongolians are becoming more reliant on grants or donations. How much progress do you think Mongolians have made in terms of their abilities?
I do not feel in a position to answer this question comprehensively as  I've only been here for four years, and out of these four years, we had nearly two years of COVID, which was a special time. However, what I think that there is still quite a lot of space to improve regarding distribution of the richness of the country, in particular of the natural resources. 

Perhaps this comment is a typical Swiss comment.  As you know, I am coming from Switzerland, where we are emphasizing redistribution of wealth. People pay their taxes, and the funds are distributed effectively from the center, such as Ulaanbaatar, to the countryside. I also believe that the people of Mongolia and the Mongolian government need to decide their developmental path. Do they want to be a developing country where development is top-down? If you aim for equality, it shouldn't be about donations. It should be about mutual investment: I contribute something, and you contribute something, and together we make progress.

Do you mean it's a win-win situation?
Yes, I think it has to be win-win. But sometimes I think it's not very clear what you really want. Of course, there are exceptional situations, like the dzud you had, where you ask for support, and I think for that, friendship is crucial. That's why Switzerland supported and assisted the government and herders with around 200,000 Swiss francs this year. We supported the Mongolian government to show our friendship.

But aside from that, I think you are quite a well-of country. You have for example gold, and copper, and as far as I know, it's projected that these resources will increase. You definitively have so much untapped renewable energy potentials, like wind and solar power. Every country has problems, but in comparison, you are a rich country. That's one of the reasons why Switzerland decided to stop bilateral cooperation.

I think there needs somehow to be a shift in mindset. If I walk through the city, prices are relatively high. It's good because you are paying fair salaries. In factories, you don't see child labor. Of course, you see children helping herders, but honestly, in my country, farmer children also help their parents during holidays. You can't really call that child labor. You don't see children collecting waste on the streets. Also, hotels are not cheap, of course always in comparison to places like Bangladesh, Myanmar, or Laos; the prices here are quite high. You're like a middle-income country, and I think that's correct. So, in my view, I guess you need to move away from relying on humanitarian and development support. If you want a one-to-one dialogue, you have to look for win-win situations. That's my very personal opinion, but it's only been a short period since I've been here—just four years, so I might be wrong.

However, I see also huge changes ongoing, for example, in digitalization, which is excellent. One outcome of the recent election is the intention to digitalize the voting system for the next parliamentary election, so everyone, including those residing abroad would have better access in the future. You are really advanced in this area. Of course, there are problems with access, and the internet is not working quickly enough everywhere, but in many parts, I can see that you are more advanced than other countries, including Switzerland.

The world is changing quickly, and Mongolia, with all its youth and ambition, is changing too. When I see where we were 20 years ago with our projects and what we've achieved, I see a completely different level of discussion now. So, I definitive have made significant progress. Yes. 

We recently took a big step forward with the recent election, increasing the number of parliament members to 126. In particular, the addition of 32 female members and representatives of the younger generation is commendable. We would like to hear your thoughts on this.
I would first like to congratulate the Mongolian government and the people of Mongolia. It was a peaceful and quiet election. We could observe, , peaceful and orderly election process. Of course, there were complaints, for example regarding inadequate access for disabled and elderly people, but overall, Mongolia did really a great job. The votes were counted both by machines and by hand, and the process was incredibly quick. So, congratulations!

Now, regarding the 32 female members, more would always be better, but this is still a significant improvement. You've increased the number of female parliamentarians compared to the last election, where there were only 13 female members. This is really a respectable progress. It's also an important step forward in terms of diversity in the Parliament. However, the large constituencies made it difficult for candidates from smaller aimags to receive sufficient votes. There's room for improvement, but it's a process, and considering it's a completely new system for you, you've done excellently.

There is always room for improvement, but you are a relatively young democracy. The fact that you had peaceful changes is already a big success in itself.

In another interview, you mentioned there is much to learn from Mongolia's experience in strengthening parliamentary democracy. Please share more details about that.
As I said, Mongolia is a young democracy and have made peaceful transitions. This parliamentary election demonstrates that. Mongolia is not in an easy situation, given the pressures from China and Russia and your dependency on them. The geopolitical situation is challenging. 

You have to constantly find a balance and maintain neutrality to survive economically. I think it's impressive how Mongolia is managing now. I witnessed some of the public protests, like the coal theft and green bus issues last year. We have many protests in Switzerland, and many of them become quite violent, requiring police intervention. I observed how the government managed demonstration. During those very cold days, you provided buses so that protesters had access to warmth, toilets, and tea/coffee. When some protesters tried to enter the Parliament, instead of responding aggressively, you allowed them in and engaged in open dialogue. 

I don't say it's perfect, but you managed it quite peacefully. At the end, people went home, discussions were held, and there were changes. I was impressed by how you managed it. If you look at what's happening in some European countries, you can see a stark contrast in how protests are managed.

So, you're doing a good job, honestly. Of course, everyone can always criticize—it's easy to criticize—but it's much more difficult to do better.

I hope you know that 16 years ago, Mongolians experienced a dark chapter when five protesters died during a protest. So, I think there is a collective fear of that happening again, which is why we try to find solutions calmly.
I think it has to do with your calm attitude, and of course, there are always exceptions. Last year, our SDC Director General, Patricia Danzi visited Mongolia and she was very impressed. I’ll give you one example. She saw a woman in the street fighting and shouting at the traffic policeman, with whom she felt in disagreement. In  in another countries, she might have been taken to prison.. But here, the police just tried to calm her down. Our SDC Director General was very impressed and said, "Wow, democratic processes and respect of human rights are very strong here."

What was the best thing about working and living in Mongolia?
Honestly, I like being here. You have a beautiful country. I enjoy working with my team because we have a free exchange of opinions and can have open discussions. Before, I worked in Pakistan, which was very difficult. Here, I can walk around wherever I want, even in the evening, and nothing happens. I feel free and very safe here.

I love your sunshine—you have so much light here. I don't like the air pollution during the winter, but it really is a beautiful and peaceful country. Everywhere you go, people welcome you with open arms, especially in the countryside.

On the other hand, what do you think needs to be changed or improved in the attitude and social system of Mongolians?
I think I mentioned some of these points earlier. One key area is the redistribution of taxe income and resources. In Switzerland, taxes are collected and each level is using the taxes as approved by the respective population. In a way, there is similarity in your country for example, regarding the animal tax law: Through the Green Gold and Animal Health project, SDC supported the introduction of the animal tax law. Today, herders have to pay tax for each animal, and they don’t mind this tax because it stays at the soum level to improve the pasture management and is not sent back to the national level. The soum people decide how to use it, such as improving pasture management. This promotes local accountability and interest in tax collection.

Secondly, addressing big corruption cases is crucial. While petty bribery has decreased, partly due to digitalization, there is still significant work to be done to tackle larger corruption issues.

Thirdly, Mongolia needs to invest in green energy. In the long term, the country must improve its energy sector by focusing on solar and wind energy. You have enormous potential to become greener economy and reduce coal usage, especially in the city during winter.

You are the most energetic and cheerful person I have ever met. I wonder where this energy comes from?
I draw a lot of my energy from my team. I have a wonderful team that treats me well and supports me wherever they can. Their support and understanding give me a lot of energy. Additionally, I really enjoy your country. For example, the intense sunlight has a significant impact on my well-being. I often call my mother in Switzerland, and she tells me, "Oh, it's been raining all week and so dark here." I show her pictures from here and say, "Look, we have beautiful sunshine!" Even though it can get a bit cold during certain months, we always have sunshine.

I also enjoy getting out of the office to visit projects in the field, speak with people, and engage with our partner organizations. Witnessing our achievements and identifying areas where we still need to improve gives me energy and sparks new ideas, enriching our work.

Additionally, I try to maintain a positive outlook and focus on what I have rather than what I lack—seeing the glass as half full rather than half empty.

Thank you for your time.