I SAW A JOB OPENING IN MONGOLIA FOR UNICEF REPRESENTATIVE AND I REALLY WANTED THAT JOB
I SAW A JOB OPENING IN MONGOLIA FOR UNICEF REPRESENTATIVE AND I REALLY WANTED THAT JOB
I SAW A JOB OPENING IN MONGOLIA FOR UNICEF REPRESENTATIVE AND I REALLY WANTED THAT JOB
I SAW A JOB OPENING IN MONGOLIA FOR UNICEF REPRESENTATIVE AND I REALLY WANTED THAT JOB
-First of all, please introduce yourself to our readers. Please share your childhood memories with us. Where did you spend your childhood?
-I was born in a small town called Apeldoorn, the Netherlands. My life really started in Utrecht, though, because that’s where I studied, where I met my wife and where my oldest daughter was born. Utrecht is a beautiful historic city with a mix of old and modern architecture. Thousands and thousands of students study in Utrecht. In the centre, everything is within walking distance, which is really convenient.
I learned to cook and clean when I was a young child because my parents felt boys should help at home. I have two brothers and all of us started to help when we were about 4 years old. I think it’s really good practice. Nowadays I still enjoy cooking, which I usually do at the weekend. During the week it’s difficult with work, of course, but luckily my wife also enjoys cooking.
My other big passion is martial arts. It keeps me mentally and physically sharp. About 25 years ago I started at university with karate. For last 10 years it’s been mostly Muay Thai (kickboxing). Here in Ulaanbaatar I found a good place called Garuda where I usually train about eight hours per week. Every day I go from the office to the gym and then I go home. By the time I get home, I’m really relaxed. My mind is calm and my body is tired in a good way.
My two daughters also practise martial arts, Muay Thai and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I think martial arts is very good for children, especially girls. It builds self-confidence and discipline, and they learn how to defend themselves. I am not worried about my daughters when they’re outside. I think self-defence is an important life skill.
-Previously you worked in different Asian countries. Did you prefer to live in Asia?
-It just happened. I studied biology and specialized in environmental pollution. Wheбоир I did my PhD research the fieldwork was in Indonesia. There I realized that developing countries have much bigger environmental issues than the Netherlands. That’s how I ended up working in Asia on environmental issues like climate change, forest degradation and water pollution for 10 years with UNDP and FAO after I got my PhD.
After I moved to UNICEF Headquarters, I thought the next step would bring me to Africa. Then I saw a job opening in Mongolia for UNICEF Representative and I really wanted that job. It was for two reasons: it would move me into a senior management position and it would still allow me to use my technical expertise in environmental pollution. I was very happy that the UNICEF Regional Director for East Asia and the Pacific and the UNICEF Executive Director agreed that I was the right person to be appointed here in Mongolia.
-Why did Mongolia attract you?
-There were two reasons. On a personal note, about 10 years ago I think, we were based in Bangkok and my wife and I bought a travel guide for Mongolia. We really wanted to go Mongolia because we thought it was one of the very unique places on the planet. Unfortunately we didn’t manage to visit Mongolia at that time.
The other reason is air pollution. At UNICEF Headquarters I was the global adviser on climate change and environmental pollution. I started to push UNICEF globally to do more work on air pollution. In that context I learned about the air pollution situation in Mongolia and started to support UNICEF Mongolia to take action. It’s one of the most extreme cases of air pollution in the world and so many children and pregnant woman suffer because of it. So both professionally and personally I really wanted to go to Mongolia to help with the air pollution crisis and to explore the country and its culture.
-When did you start your career in the United Nations (UN)?
-This is my third UN agency so far. I started back in 2004. There was a position that was funded by the Dutch Government for junior professionals to enter the UN system. This was a specific post with FAO. They were looking for a water quality expert, which was exactly what I was specialized in. That’s how I entered the UN system. After a few years I moved to Bangkok, where the FAO regional office is situated. From there I started to work on water quality issues across Asia. Then there was a new opportunity with UNDP in Indonesia, where I started to work on climate change.
From UNDP Indonesia, I moved to the UNDP regional office in Bangkok, where I mostly worked on climate finance and supporting Asian countries to access funding. Then UNICEF Headquarters was recruiting a global advisor on climate change. I was really keen to get that job because it would give me a broader horizon geographically and focus on environmental issues that affect children. UNICEF has offices in over 130 countries around the world with more than 16,000 employees. So the outreach is really big. From there I came to Mongolia.
-First of all, please introduce yourself to our readers. Please share your childhood memories with us. Where did you spend your childhood?
-I was born in a small town called Apeldoorn, the Netherlands. My life really started in Utrecht, though, because that’s where I studied, where I met my wife and where my oldest daughter was born. Utrecht is a beautiful historic city with a mix of old and modern architecture. Thousands and thousands of students study in Utrecht. In the centre, everything is within walking distance, which is really convenient.
I learned to cook and clean when I was a young child because my parents felt boys should help at home. I have two brothers and all of us started to help when we were about 4 years old. I think it’s really good practice. Nowadays I still enjoy cooking, which I usually do at the weekend. During the week it’s difficult with work, of course, but luckily my wife also enjoys cooking.
My other big passion is martial arts. It keeps me mentally and physically sharp. About 25 years ago I started at university with karate. For last 10 years it’s been mostly Muay Thai (kickboxing). Here in Ulaanbaatar I found a good place called Garuda where I usually train about eight hours per week. Every day I go from the office to the gym and then I go home. By the time I get home, I’m really relaxed. My mind is calm and my body is tired in a good way.
My two daughters also practise martial arts, Muay Thai and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I think martial arts is very good for children, especially girls. It builds self-confidence and discipline, and they learn how to defend themselves. I am not worried about my daughters when they’re outside. I think self-defence is an important life skill.
-Previously you worked in different Asian countries. Did you prefer to live in Asia?
-It just happened. I studied biology and specialized in environmental pollution. Wheбоир I did my PhD research the fieldwork was in Indonesia. There I realized that developing countries have much bigger environmental issues than the Netherlands. That’s how I ended up working in Asia on environmental issues like climate change, forest degradation and water pollution for 10 years with UNDP and FAO after I got my PhD.
After I moved to UNICEF Headquarters, I thought the next step would bring me to Africa. Then I saw a job opening in Mongolia for UNICEF Representative and I really wanted that job. It was for two reasons: it would move me into a senior management position and it would still allow me to use my technical expertise in environmental pollution. I was very happy that the UNICEF Regional Director for East Asia and the Pacific and the UNICEF Executive Director agreed that I was the right person to be appointed here in Mongolia.
-Why did Mongolia attract you?
-There were two reasons. On a personal note, about 10 years ago I think, we were based in Bangkok and my wife and I bought a travel guide for Mongolia. We really wanted to go Mongolia because we thought it was one of the very unique places on the planet. Unfortunately we didn’t manage to visit Mongolia at that time.
The other reason is air pollution. At UNICEF Headquarters I was the global adviser on climate change and environmental pollution. I started to push UNICEF globally to do more work on air pollution. In that context I learned about the air pollution situation in Mongolia and started to support UNICEF Mongolia to take action. It’s one of the most extreme cases of air pollution in the world and so many children and pregnant woman suffer because of it. So both professionally and personally I really wanted to go to Mongolia to help with the air pollution crisis and to explore the country and its culture.
-When did you start your career in the United Nations (UN)?
-This is my third UN agency so far. I started back in 2004. There was a position that was funded by the Dutch Government for junior professionals to enter the UN system. This was a specific post with FAO. They were looking for a water quality expert, which was exactly what I was specialized in. That’s how I entered the UN system. After a few years I moved to Bangkok, where the FAO regional office is situated. From there I started to work on water quality issues across Asia. Then there was a new opportunity with UNDP in Indonesia, where I started to work on climate change.
From UNDP Indonesia, I moved to the UNDP regional office in Bangkok, where I mostly worked on climate finance and supporting Asian countries to access funding. Then UNICEF Headquarters was recruiting a global advisor on climate change. I was really keen to get that job because it would give me a broader horizon geographically and focus on environmental issues that affect children. UNICEF has offices in over 130 countries around the world with more than 16,000 employees. So the outreach is really big. From there I came to Mongolia.
EXPAT LIFE IS NOT FOR EVERYBODY
EXPAT LIFE IS NOT FOR EVERYBODY
The other thing about working for the UN is that we regularly move to a new country. My family and I are global nomads. Every 3–4 years a shipping container shows up in front of our apartment, and there we go again. That has both advantages and challenges. On the one hand you see and experience so many beautiful places and cultures. We have friends all over the world. It’s also difficult sometimes. For example, when we lived in Bangladesh there were bomb attacks and riots in the city every week. There was a lot violence and poverty there is extreme. You see things on the street that prevent you from sleeping at night. The other thing which is difficult is that every time you leave you have to say goodbye to all your friends and colleagues. And when you come to a new duty station, you have to invest a lot in terms of making new friends again. Every time you have to rebuild your social life. We know exactly how it works now.
The final months in a duty station are difficult because you have to say goodbye and hand over the work. Meanwhile, you’re busy packing and organizing the travel and shipping. It’s like a military operation. Luckily my wife is really good at that and takes care of it. The first three months in the new duty station are all about the practical things. You need a house, phone, car, internet, paperwork. etc. That’s the easy part. Then you need a social life, which you can’t buy. How do you build and rebuild a social life in new place?
We’ve developed strategies for that over time. My wife really likes public speaking so the first thing she does is to find a public speaking club, which she also did here in Ulaanbaatar. People who go to these clubs like to talk and socialize so it’s a good place to start. For me, the first thing I always do is to find a place to train in martial arts. That’s my way to get connected with the community and start seeing people outside the office. For an expat family to do well, I think you need to be really close to each other, because you can’t rely on your wider family and friends. It also means that expat life is not for everybody.
-What is your family’s reaction to your duty?
-My family is happy in Mongolia. They are happier here than they were in the United States. They’re connecting much better. My daughters go to the International School of Ulaanbaatar (ISU). In the United States they went to a public school which was technically a very good school but because of their very different lifestyle and history, my daughters didn’t really connect with those children. At ISU it was much easier for my kids to connect because there are many other expat children. They also connected well with many of the Mongolian kids at school. Ulaanbaatar is pretty safe so my daughters can do pretty much whatever they want. Now with COVID the situation is of course much more difficult but that’s true for all children in UB.
The other thing about working for the UN is that we regularly move to a new country. My family and I are global nomads. Every 3–4 years a shipping container shows up in front of our apartment, and there we go again. That has both advantages and challenges. On the one hand you see and experience so many beautiful places and cultures. We have friends all over the world. It’s also difficult sometimes. For example, when we lived in Bangladesh there were bomb attacks and riots in the city every week. There was a lot violence and poverty there is extreme. You see things on the street that prevent you from sleeping at night. The other thing which is difficult is that every time you leave you have to say goodbye to all your friends and colleagues. And when you come to a new duty station, you have to invest a lot in terms of making new friends again. Every time you have to rebuild your social life. We know exactly how it works now.
The final months in a duty station are difficult because you have to say goodbye and hand over the work. Meanwhile, you’re busy packing and organizing the travel and shipping. It’s like a military operation. Luckily my wife is really good at that and takes care of it. The first three months in the new duty station are all about the practical things. You need a house, phone, car, internet, paperwork. etc. That’s the easy part. Then you need a social life, which you can’t buy. How do you build and rebuild a social life in new place?
We’ve developed strategies for that over time. My wife really likes public speaking so the first thing she does is to find a public speaking club, which she also did here in Ulaanbaatar. People who go to these clubs like to talk and socialize so it’s a good place to start. For me, the first thing I always do is to find a place to train in martial arts. That’s my way to get connected with the community and start seeing people outside the office. For an expat family to do well, I think you need to be really close to each other, because you can’t rely on your wider family and friends. It also means that expat life is not for everybody.
-What is your family’s reaction to your duty?
-My family is happy in Mongolia. They are happier here than they were in the United States. They’re connecting much better. My daughters go to the International School of Ulaanbaatar (ISU). In the United States they went to a public school which was technically a very good school but because of their very different lifestyle and history, my daughters didn’t really connect with those children. At ISU it was much easier for my kids to connect because there are many other expat children. They also connected well with many of the Mongolian kids at school. Ulaanbaatar is pretty safe so my daughters can do pretty much whatever they want. Now with COVID the situation is of course much more difficult but that’s true for all children in UB.
ALCOHOL IS INCREDIBLY CHEAP IN MONGOLIA. IT’S JUST RIDICULOUS
ALCOHOL IS INCREDIBLY CHEAP IN MONGOLIA. IT’S JUST RIDICULOUS
-As an air pollution expert what is your opinion about Ulaanbaatar’s air quality?
-I think first of all we need to recognize that there is air pollution in many parts of Mongolia. In many aimag centres – for example, Bayankhongor, Khovd and Umnugovi – air pollution is very bad. We need to see the country as a whole, not only Ulaanbaatar. That’s the first thing. The second thing is that in terms of Ulaanbaatar there’s good news and bad news. The good news is that there has been a significant reduction in MP25 because of the introduction of refined coal. At the same time we still need a very large reduction in air pollution before we reach safe levels. I’m not sure but it may already have been reduced by 50 per cent. I think that figure can be disputed but let’s say it’s 50 per cent. We still need another 45 per cent before you reach accptable air quality. We went from crazy bad air pollution to really bad air pollution. There is progress but the level of air pollution is still extremely harmful, especially in the ger districts.
I do really appreciate the commitment from the Prime Minister to reduce air pollution by 80 per cent. The question of course is how to achieve that? I strongly believe that refined coal will not result in any further reduction in air pollution. That means the only way to reach a greater reduction in air pollution is to stop using coal at all in the city.
That means the only option is to switch to electric heating. Homes need to switch from coal to electric heating. That will be difficult because it will create a lot of additional demand for power. On the other hand we know it’s possible. We started a project in Bayankhongor two years ago. We improved the insulation of the traditional ger and we added electric heating. Last winter we did five pilots with more than 200 households and the result is really good. It showed that even with only a 50 per cent electricity subsidy most of the households spent less on electric heating compared to heating with coal.
Many of them were also really happy that the ger was clean inside and that there’s no need to wake up in the middle of the night to heat the ger. In the morning, the kids were happy because the temperature was still 21 degrees. It’s a move from from mid-level energy to modern energy. Those gers have a thermostat inside, while most apartments in Ulaanbaatar don’t have a thermostat. The gers in our pilots have more modern heating than most apartments in Ulaanbaatar, which I think is funny in a way. So it’s possible, doable.
What we need is the political commitment to make that transition really fast because we’ve proven it’s possible. We started to make to scale but we need much more support and commitment from both Government and society. The private sector also needs to step in and see it as a profitable business opportunity. For example, production of new ger insulation and electric heating blocks has already created green jobs and business opportunities. It’s not just good for the environment and children’s health. Especially in these days with so many economic problems because of COVID, it’s good to look at new business opportunities. This is one we should really pursue.
-Parliament approved the 2021 state budget law. The opposition commented that Mongolia has shifted to being a welfare state. What do you think about that?
-I think there are two elements. First of all, it’s essential to have a social welfare system in place to look after the vulnerable in society: to support, for example, single mothers with children and to look after the poorest in the community. Relatively speaking, in Mongolia you have a good welfare system compared with many other countries. I think that Mongolian society should appreciate it. You don’t always see it when you look at your own situation.
Is it getting too much? I think it’s important to look at the data and the evidence. A very recent study by the Asian Development Bank (ADB) shows that for average adults in Mongolia, only 4 per cent of people’s income comes from social welfare. Only 4 per cent. If you look at the poorest 25 per cent of the community, 12 per cent of their income comes from social welfare. These numbers are not shockingly high. In that sense I don’t think we should see it as being too much. However, it’s important to look at what can be done to make it more efficient and effective.
There are a lot of different social welfare programmes, more than 70. I believe the Ministry of Labour and Social Protection is working on streamlining these programmes because more than 70 programmes sounds too much. Some could be merged, some could be better targeted. I think that would really make sense. That’s how we look at the Mongolian social welfare system.
-Now I’d like to hear your opinion about the child allowance. Children get 100,000 tugrugs every month. Some politicians believe that this allowance must continue. On the other hand, economists criticize this policy because of the financial embarrassment to the state budget.
-First of all, UNICEF’s global view is that universal child benefits are really important. Universal means every child in the country should get a certain allowance.
I think it’s important not to see it as welfare. We see it as a very good investment because it’s very clear that the return on that investment is really high. Many years ago global data proved that when you invest in children at a young age, the return is 10–15 times the value of the investment. Families with young children need sufficient funding to look after the basic needs of children. That’s the first point. The second point that’s important is to understand why the figure has been set at 100,000 tugrugs. Before COVID it was 20,000 tugrugs. That goes back to 2012, when 20,000 tugrugs was the norm for every child. Sometimes 60 per cent and sometimes 80 per cent of children got it. Recently it has reached 100 per cent.
When the COVID pandemic started to unfold, we quickly realized that the economic impacts would be very high. This is very clear. For us, it was very clear in January that there would be major financial consequences for families. Then the Government decided, based on UNICEF’s recommendation, to increase the allowance to 100,000 tugrugs. I still believe it was a good decision. If you look at the baseline of the ADB study conducted in the last few weeks, it showed that in 2018 the poverty rate was around 28 per cent. Without the child allowance, the poverty rate would have increased to 38 per cent. Because of this programme, the Government was able to avoid an increase in poverty. The model shows that the poverty rate is now about 20 per cent. That’s very important point to consider.
-As an air pollution expert what is your opinion about Ulaanbaatar’s air quality?
-I think first of all we need to recognize that there is air pollution in many parts of Mongolia. In many aimag centres – for example, Bayankhongor, Khovd and Umnugovi – air pollution is very bad. We need to see the country as a whole, not only Ulaanbaatar. That’s the first thing. The second thing is that in terms of Ulaanbaatar there’s good news and bad news. The good news is that there has been a significant reduction in MP25 because of the introduction of refined coal. At the same time we still need a very large reduction in air pollution before we reach safe levels. I’m not sure but it may already have been reduced by 50 per cent. I think that figure can be disputed but let’s say it’s 50 per cent. We still need another 45 per cent before you reach accptable air quality. We went from crazy bad air pollution to really bad air pollution. There is progress but the level of air pollution is still extremely harmful, especially in the ger districts.
I do really appreciate the commitment from the Prime Minister to reduce air pollution by 80 per cent. The question of course is how to achieve that? I strongly believe that refined coal will not result in any further reduction in air pollution. That means the only way to reach a greater reduction in air pollution is to stop using coal at all in the city.
That means the only option is to switch to electric heating. Homes need to switch from coal to electric heating. That will be difficult because it will create a lot of additional demand for power. On the other hand we know it’s possible. We started a project in Bayankhongor two years ago. We improved the insulation of the traditional ger and we added electric heating. Last winter we did five pilots with more than 200 households and the result is really good. It showed that even with only a 50 per cent electricity subsidy most of the households spent less on electric heating compared to heating with coal.
Many of them were also really happy that the ger was clean inside and that there’s no need to wake up in the middle of the night to heat the ger. In the morning, the kids were happy because the temperature was still 21 degrees. It’s a move from from mid-level energy to modern energy. Those gers have a thermostat inside, while most apartments in Ulaanbaatar don’t have a thermostat. The gers in our pilots have more modern heating than most apartments in Ulaanbaatar, which I think is funny in a way. So it’s possible, doable.
What we need is the political commitment to make that transition really fast because we’ve proven it’s possible. We started to make to scale but we need much more support and commitment from both Government and society. The private sector also needs to step in and see it as a profitable business opportunity. For example, production of new ger insulation and electric heating blocks has already created green jobs and business opportunities. It’s not just good for the environment and children’s health. Especially in these days with so many economic problems because of COVID, it’s good to look at new business opportunities. This is one we should really pursue.
-Parliament approved the 2021 state budget law. The opposition commented that Mongolia has shifted to being a welfare state. What do you think about that?
-I think there are two elements. First of all, it’s essential to have a social welfare system in place to look after the vulnerable in society: to support, for example, single mothers with children and to look after the poorest in the community. Relatively speaking, in Mongolia you have a good welfare system compared with many other countries. I think that Mongolian society should appreciate it. You don’t always see it when you look at your own situation.
Is it getting too much? I think it’s important to look at the data and the evidence. A very recent study by the Asian Development Bank (ADB) shows that for average adults in Mongolia, only 4 per cent of people’s income comes from social welfare. Only 4 per cent. If you look at the poorest 25 per cent of the community, 12 per cent of their income comes from social welfare. These numbers are not shockingly high. In that sense I don’t think we should see it as being too much. However, it’s important to look at what can be done to make it more efficient and effective.
There are a lot of different social welfare programmes, more than 70. I believe the Ministry of Labour and Social Protection is working on streamlining these programmes because more than 70 programmes sounds too much. Some could be merged, some could be better targeted. I think that would really make sense. That’s how we look at the Mongolian social welfare system.
-Now I’d like to hear your opinion about the child allowance. Children get 100,000 tugrugs every month. Some politicians believe that this allowance must continue. On the other hand, economists criticize this policy because of the financial embarrassment to the state budget.
-First of all, UNICEF’s global view is that universal child benefits are really important. Universal means every child in the country should get a certain allowance.
I think it’s important not to see it as welfare. We see it as a very good investment because it’s very clear that the return on that investment is really high. Many years ago global data proved that when you invest in children at a young age, the return is 10–15 times the value of the investment. Families with young children need sufficient funding to look after the basic needs of children. That’s the first point. The second point that’s important is to understand why the figure has been set at 100,000 tugrugs. Before COVID it was 20,000 tugrugs. That goes back to 2012, when 20,000 tugrugs was the norm for every child. Sometimes 60 per cent and sometimes 80 per cent of children got it. Recently it has reached 100 per cent.
When the COVID pandemic started to unfold, we quickly realized that the economic impacts would be very high. This is very clear. For us, it was very clear in January that there would be major financial consequences for families. Then the Government decided, based on UNICEF’s recommendation, to increase the allowance to 100,000 tugrugs. I still believe it was a good decision. If you look at the baseline of the ADB study conducted in the last few weeks, it showed that in 2018 the poverty rate was around 28 per cent. Without the child allowance, the poverty rate would have increased to 38 per cent. Because of this programme, the Government was able to avoid an increase in poverty. The model shows that the poverty rate is now about 20 per cent. That’s very important point to consider.
What we need to look at further is controlling how child allowances are used. Are parents using this money for the right purposes? There has been some controversy in the media as well, saying people are buying alcohol, etc. I think we have to be very careful about this diagnosis. Always show me the data and evidence and then draw conclusions. Anecdotal stories should not be the basis for policy decisions. There’s also very clear evidence from other countries that have done cash transfers to families for many years.
By far most parents will use the money for the right purpose. It’s very simple. Most parents really love their children. They’ll use the money for their children’s needs. Of course, there are always exceptions. There will be exceptions where parents are neglecting the children and not using the money for its intended purpose. We need to avoid a few exceptions undermining the success of the programme as a whole. We need to identify those exceptions and work with these people to get them on the right track, but the majority who are doing the right thing should not be penalized because of a minority who do wrong things. I think that’s important to keep in mind.
As UNICEF we will continue to collect the evidence and data to see what the real situation is and how can we further optimize the use of the child programme.
-UNICEF is the global leader promoting and protecting children’s rights in 190 countries, including Mongolia. Unfortunately, serious violations of children’s rights happen in Mongolia. Children are dying because of their parents’ beatings. What should we do to stop it?
-It really breaks my heart. These are incredibly sad stories. I am so sad for the victims and the families left behind. It’s a real problem, even more so than before COVID. It’s clear that since COVID the amount of abuse and the number of individual acts of abuse have sharply increased. It was already a problem and now it’s an even bigger problem. This is not something completely new. It goes back many years. I think what all the stakeholders need to recognize is that we hadn’t been investing enough over the decades in terms of prevention, response and support. If we are to avoid child abuse, children must be protected throughout the process of justice. We need to make sure that children are treated properly in the justice process.
For example, the system around reporting is very problematic and risky. It’s not a very good system. It’s good that more police officers will be recruited to support these situations but we also need significant investment in additional social workers. There are social workers but they already have huge amounts of work on their plate and will struggle to take on this additional work as well. Across the board, much bigger investments are necessary to strengthen the system as a whole in terms of child protection. The system is one big area where we need major investments and real commitments.
Then I think there is a big underlying issue in society. It seems that violence against children – for example, beating your child – is still acceptable. If your 6-year-old is doing something naughty you beat or kick him or her. That’s just what you do, because the child is wrong. If beating is still accepted, then when people already have mental issues, they drink. It seems no surprise that you also see extreme violence that causes children to end up in the hospital or to be killed. The norms need to be changed as well. Often it’s men that are beating their children so badly. Why are men doing that? Where does this habit come from? Were they beaten themselves? Was that the norm they grew up with? For them it’s just normal. When they’re drunk, they often beat the child to death and can’t remember what they did the next day.
These norms need to be changed. I already mentioned alcohol. It’s very clear that it’s a major factor in violence at home against children and women. Both women and children suffer a lot. Put simply, alcohol is incredibly cheap in Mongolia. It’s just ridiculous. I think the Government needs to consider sharply increasing the price of alcohol, especially vodka. There’s a difference between having a nice evening with a few friends and drinking two or three glasses, and drinking a whole bottle. Then you take another one, you get blind drunk and you have no memory of what you’ve done. The price of alcohol is so low. The cost isn’t stopping anybody from buying several bottles of vodka instead of one bottle. That’s a big issue in addition to the other issues in terms of social norms. People find it quite normal when someone drinks in the street. In terms of child protection, the system is too weak to handle this issue.
What we need to look at further is controlling how child allowances are used. Are parents using this money for the right purposes? There has been some controversy in the media as well, saying people are buying alcohol, etc. I think we have to be very careful about this diagnosis. Always show me the data and evidence and then draw conclusions. Anecdotal stories should not be the basis for policy decisions. There’s also very clear evidence from other countries that have done cash transfers to families for many years.
By far most parents will use the money for the right purpose. It’s very simple. Most parents really love their children. They’ll use the money for their children’s needs. Of course, there are always exceptions. There will be exceptions where parents are neglecting the children and not using the money for its intended purpose. We need to avoid a few exceptions undermining the success of the programme as a whole. We need to identify those exceptions and work with these people to get them on the right track, but the majority who are doing the right thing should not be penalized because of a minority who do wrong things. I think that’s important to keep in mind.
As UNICEF we will continue to collect the evidence and data to see what the real situation is and how can we further optimize the use of the child programme.
-UNICEF is the global leader promoting and protecting children’s rights in 190 countries, including Mongolia. Unfortunately, serious violations of children’s rights happen in Mongolia. Children are dying because of their parents’ beatings. What should we do to stop it?
-It really breaks my heart. These are incredibly sad stories. I am so sad for the victims and the families left behind. It’s a real problem, even more so than before COVID. It’s clear that since COVID the amount of abuse and the number of individual acts of abuse have sharply increased. It was already a problem and now it’s an even bigger problem. This is not something completely new. It goes back many years. I think what all the stakeholders need to recognize is that we hadn’t been investing enough over the decades in terms of prevention, response and support. If we are to avoid child abuse, children must be protected throughout the process of justice. We need to make sure that children are treated properly in the justice process.
For example, the system around reporting is very problematic and risky. It’s not a very good system. It’s good that more police officers will be recruited to support these situations but we also need significant investment in additional social workers. There are social workers but they already have huge amounts of work on their plate and will struggle to take on this additional work as well. Across the board, much bigger investments are necessary to strengthen the system as a whole in terms of child protection. The system is one big area where we need major investments and real commitments.
Then I think there is a big underlying issue in society. It seems that violence against children – for example, beating your child – is still acceptable. If your 6-year-old is doing something naughty you beat or kick him or her. That’s just what you do, because the child is wrong. If beating is still accepted, then when people already have mental issues, they drink. It seems no surprise that you also see extreme violence that causes children to end up in the hospital or to be killed. The norms need to be changed as well. Often it’s men that are beating their children so badly. Why are men doing that? Where does this habit come from? Were they beaten themselves? Was that the norm they grew up with? For them it’s just normal. When they’re drunk, they often beat the child to death and can’t remember what they did the next day.
These norms need to be changed. I already mentioned alcohol. It’s very clear that it’s a major factor in violence at home against children and women. Both women and children suffer a lot. Put simply, alcohol is incredibly cheap in Mongolia. It’s just ridiculous. I think the Government needs to consider sharply increasing the price of alcohol, especially vodka. There’s a difference between having a nice evening with a few friends and drinking two or three glasses, and drinking a whole bottle. Then you take another one, you get blind drunk and you have no memory of what you’ve done. The price of alcohol is so low. The cost isn’t stopping anybody from buying several bottles of vodka instead of one bottle. That’s a big issue in addition to the other issues in terms of social norms. People find it quite normal when someone drinks in the street. In terms of child protection, the system is too weak to handle this issue.
SINCE 2013, TEENAGE SUICIDE HAD INCREASED FIVE TIMES IN MONGOLIA
SINCE 2013, TEENAGE SUICIDE HAD INCREASED FIVE TIMES IN MONGOLIA
-UNICEF started a new project creating interactive video content for pupils in cooperation with Mongol Content LLC. What were lessons from the previous year?
-We call this project e-learning or digital learning. Last winter it was good that the Government immediately started TV lessons on all channels while working to come up with alternatives. It’s also really good that we’re taking the lessons to the next level. An assessment was done a few months ago. What early results showed was that half of the children followed TV lessons, which is good, but it means the other half didn’t. That’s a big problem. The good news was that overall, people were happy with the content. We can build on that.
There were other important findings. In particular, most children in the countryside weren’t watching the lessons on TV but were using smartphones. That makes quite a difference in terms of how you present the content. Do you make it TV size or smartphone size? Another fact that we came to understand was that children use a range of different equipment – like smartphones, tablets and computers – to follow the lessons.
We learned multiple things. First of all, not every child is using a TV. That happened especially in the ger districts. Poor families don’t have TVs. Herder families don’t follow TV programmes. Access to learning is difficult for these groups. We have to work on that. We have to think about the tools we use. And of course we need diverse forms and more attractive content, because at some point TV lessons become boring. It’s hard to keep 8-year-olds focused on the TV if it’s math. We need to do something to help them pay attention, in a really exciting way. This is what we’re doing with Mongol Content.
Of course the content, the substance, needs to come from the national curriculum. But how can we package it in an exciting way? That’s why we’re working with the professionals from Mongol Content and others on how to do it in a way that kids want to follow the lessons. It’s important that we get these all done. I think there are 104 modules, which doesn’t cover the whole curriculum but at least it’s a step in the right direction. We need much more investment to cover the national curriculum. It’s really important to put out all of the content and find a better platform to put it together quickly because the pandemic isn’t over.
There’s a very significant chance that schools or parts of schools will be closed again at some point this year or next year. We want to make sure children can continue to learn in a better way than how it was done last year or earlier this year during the school closure.
-Before coming here I visited the UNICEF website. One piece of research really shocked me. Since 2013, teenage suicide had increased five times in Mongolia. What are the main factors that push teenagers to suicide?
-We started doing research in 2013. I totally agree with you about that shocking number. When I mentioned it a while ago to some other Mongolian people, they literally said to me, “Alex, I don’t believe you”. I think people don’t want to believe it because it’s a shockingly high number but the facts are clear. I think there’s also a lot of underreporting. You can report these things in different ways. You can say someone slipped in front of a bus or someone jumped from the bus or someone fell out the window. In one case it’s recorded as suicide, while in other cases it’s recorded as an accident. That’s already a question: how to record. That’s why we need to do more research, not only for the numbers.
As you said, discovering the root causes is very important. For example, basic things like peer pressure, or kids feeling really pressured by other children to do this or do that. Among themselves they create a lot of pressure, which can cause stress. Another big challenge is teenagers’ communication with their parents. It can be quite challenging. I understood from my colleagues that you have major problems with your parents.
It may be related to what we discussed earlier, which is violence against children. If you’re experiencing a lot of violence at home as a child it can really put you down, make you depressed. That’s true not only of physical violence but also verbal violence. I think communications at home and peer pressure from other teenagers are the first reasons that came forward. We definitely need to do more work to deepen our understanding. We also need to work on solutions. One of the things we’re promoting is working with teenagers.
We work with them in terms of their life skills, psychosocial support and building self-confidence. Psychosocial support is something new to Mongolia. Because of COVID, UNICEF is investing even more in it than we ever have before. It’s also an opportunity in a way. Now that all of this is happening, we realize the importance of psychosocial support to teenagers. For the first time, a curriculum and training modules are being developed. Social workers and psychologists are being trained. Hopefully, this will help the overall mental well-being of children and teenagers. We hope to contribute to reducing issues or improving stress management for the children themselves, and creating a better supporting environment for children. Then we can start fundamentally addressing the issue of suicide among children.
-At the end of the interview, please introduce us to the UNICEF Mongolia team.
-We have about 50 people, with four internationals, including myself. It’s mostly Mongolians working for UNICEF. It’s a very diverse group in terms of education as well. I think the youngest is 26 and the oldest is roughly early 60s. We have three generations in the office. The older generation mostly studied in Russia, the younger generation more commonly studied in the United States or Australia. We have education; health; social policy; clean air; communications; water, sanitation and hygiene; and operations teams. We cover every aspect of our programme, of course. I’m really happy with the team. I’m leaving in August 2021 so next year will be difficult for me. This is the best team I’ve ever worked with. I’m not exaggerating. What I see is that the team is really professional, passionate, well-organized and fun. I think these factors have brought the team very much together. For example, the pandemic has brought us closer. We delivered even more that we had done before.
-Where do you go next year?
-I will be moving to Azerbaijan. It’s very exciting because it’s a country where I have not been before and the region is also new to me. So, lots of opportunities to learn and explore, and to find out what I can do for my new team.
-Thank you very much.
-UNICEF started a new project creating interactive video content for pupils in cooperation with Mongol Content LLC. What were lessons from the previous year?
-We call this project e-learning or digital learning. Last winter it was good that the Government immediately started TV lessons on all channels while working to come up with alternatives. It’s also really good that we’re taking the lessons to the next level. An assessment was done a few months ago. What early results showed was that half of the children followed TV lessons, which is good, but it means the other half didn’t. That’s a big problem. The good news was that overall, people were happy with the content. We can build on that.
There were other important findings. In particular, most children in the countryside weren’t watching the lessons on TV but were using smartphones. That makes quite a difference in terms of how you present the content. Do you make it TV size or smartphone size? Another fact that we came to understand was that children use a range of different equipment – like smartphones, tablets and computers – to follow the lessons.
We learned multiple things. First of all, not every child is using a TV. That happened especially in the ger districts. Poor families don’t have TVs. Herder families don’t follow TV programmes. Access to learning is difficult for these groups. We have to work on that. We have to think about the tools we use. And of course we need diverse forms and more attractive content, because at some point TV lessons become boring. It’s hard to keep 8-year-olds focused on the TV if it’s math. We need to do something to help them pay attention, in a really exciting way. This is what we’re doing with Mongol Content.
Of course the content, the substance, needs to come from the national curriculum. But how can we package it in an exciting way? That’s why we’re working with the professionals from Mongol Content and others on how to do it in a way that kids want to follow the lessons. It’s important that we get these all done. I think there are 104 modules, which doesn’t cover the whole curriculum but at least it’s a step in the right direction. We need much more investment to cover the national curriculum. It’s really important to put out all of the content and find a better platform to put it together quickly because the pandemic isn’t over.
There’s a very significant chance that schools or parts of schools will be closed again at some point this year or next year. We want to make sure children can continue to learn in a better way than how it was done last year or earlier this year during the school closure.
-Before coming here I visited the UNICEF website. One piece of research really shocked me. Since 2013, teenage suicide had increased five times in Mongolia. What are the main factors that push teenagers to suicide?
-We started doing research in 2013. I totally agree with you about that shocking number. When I mentioned it a while ago to some other Mongolian people, they literally said to me, “Alex, I don’t believe you”. I think people don’t want to believe it because it’s a shockingly high number but the facts are clear. I think there’s also a lot of underreporting. You can report these things in different ways. You can say someone slipped in front of a bus or someone jumped from the bus or someone fell out the window. In one case it’s recorded as suicide, while in other cases it’s recorded as an accident. That’s already a question: how to record. That’s why we need to do more research, not only for the numbers.
As you said, discovering the root causes is very important. For example, basic things like peer pressure, or kids feeling really pressured by other children to do this or do that. Among themselves they create a lot of pressure, which can cause stress. Another big challenge is teenagers’ communication with their parents. It can be quite challenging. I understood from my colleagues that you have major problems with your parents.
It may be related to what we discussed earlier, which is violence against children. If you’re experiencing a lot of violence at home as a child it can really put you down, make you depressed. That’s true not only of physical violence but also verbal violence. I think communications at home and peer pressure from other teenagers are the first reasons that came forward. We definitely need to do more work to deepen our understanding. We also need to work on solutions. One of the things we’re promoting is working with teenagers.
We work with them in terms of their life skills, psychosocial support and building self-confidence. Psychosocial support is something new to Mongolia. Because of COVID, UNICEF is investing even more in it than we ever have before. It’s also an opportunity in a way. Now that all of this is happening, we realize the importance of psychosocial support to teenagers. For the first time, a curriculum and training modules are being developed. Social workers and psychologists are being trained. Hopefully, this will help the overall mental well-being of children and teenagers. We hope to contribute to reducing issues or improving stress management for the children themselves, and creating a better supporting environment for children. Then we can start fundamentally addressing the issue of suicide among children.
-At the end of the interview, please introduce us to the UNICEF Mongolia team.
-We have about 50 people, with four internationals, including myself. It’s mostly Mongolians working for UNICEF. It’s a very diverse group in terms of education as well. I think the youngest is 26 and the oldest is roughly early 60s. We have three generations in the office. The older generation mostly studied in Russia, the younger generation more commonly studied in the United States or Australia. We have education; health; social policy; clean air; communications; water, sanitation and hygiene; and operations teams. We cover every aspect of our programme, of course. I’m really happy with the team. I’m leaving in August 2021 so next year will be difficult for me. This is the best team I’ve ever worked with. I’m not exaggerating. What I see is that the team is really professional, passionate, well-organized and fun. I think these factors have brought the team very much together. For example, the pandemic has brought us closer. We delivered even more that we had done before.
-Where do you go next year?
-I will be moving to Azerbaijan. It’s very exciting because it’s a country where I have not been before and the region is also new to me. So, lots of opportunities to learn and explore, and to find out what I can do for my new team.
-Thank you very much.